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The Next Coach


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18 minutes ago, Cockyandproud said:

I hope you are right. However, it amazes me that someone can fail pretty miserably, and senators get involved and he gets an extension. Only in government can you fail and be rewarded. 

I think they became involved due to state funding and spending $6 million on the buyout, not sure if it was necessarily in support of Frank, but you never know.  

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34 minutes ago, Longhaul said:

I think they became involved due to state funding and spending $6 million on the buyout, not sure if it was necessarily in support of Frank, but you never know.  

Mainly this.  Probably also sending a strong signal to get smarter on our coaching contracts in a time of significant revenue issues.

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38 minutes ago, Longhaul said:

I think they became involved due to state funding and spending $6 million on the buyout, not sure if it was necessarily in support of Frank, but you never know.  

@LonghaulIt wasn't, and Caslen missed his chance to make a number of the people holding $$$ over Tanner/Frank's head look silly by calling them on that and saying, "we don't want the MUSC money, if it comes with the strings attached that you are describing".

Regardless, we are where we are.  Like @kingofnerf said, hopefully next year the ship is righted.  If so, this whole conversation is just a big, ugly, bad dream.  We move on and don't look back.

Personally, I'm ready to focus on the 2021-22 team, what it looks like, what the strengths and weaknesses are, and begin to talk about next year.  I'm done with all this Frank Martin silliness that has, unfortunately, taken up too much press time around Columbia in recent months.  He's the coach for at least one more year.  Even, if you don't care for the man, let's get behind the young men who remain in Gamecock uniforms and support them in their endeavors.

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1 hour ago, kingofnerf said:

From what I have heard, Frank got a two-year extension with no salary increase and his buyout was reworked.

All Frank has to do is get back on the winning track next season and this will be forgotten.  Frank's temper issues over the years have stemmed from the fact that he wanted to turn the program around a lot sooner than happened 4 years ago.  I would think he and Caslen would be on the same page in that respect.  Caslen didn't win any friends by giving Muschamp his full lump sum buyout, either.

I also still believe a lot of our problems here are above the coaching level.

I am in support of CFM staying because I truly believe he is a good coach and can win with great players. 

I am glad that UofSC kept CFM instead of firing him after this season and it results. Regardless of the results of the season, firing CFM att would have lead to the athletic department taking a PR beating and likely would have labeled UofSC as a university that has no loyalty to its coaches after the coaches have had to plan and coach around and through a once in a lifetime event (though that take is mostly bullcrap).

I hate the methods I think CFM used to hang on to his job (which included calling in political favors and trying to go to the media with excuses). Do I know this is what happened for a fact? No. This is pure speculation on my part based on what I saw during the late part of the season and in the offseason. It could be pure coincidence that certain people stepped forward in support and that CFM also forgot to clear media events with Tanner and Caslen over the  last couple of months. 

I firmly believe that Frank has one year to make it to the NCAA tournament or Tanner and Caslen will can him. Nothing less will save his job and Frank won't be able to lean on the pandemic and Gervais Street to save him. - This I am perfectly fine with and I know Ray Tanner is behind the scene updating his contacts of potential CFM replacements to call at the end of next season. 

 

Winning will indeed be the key Frank continuing on past 2021-2022 season - as it always should be. The buyout and extension will only be there to help Frank in recruiting.

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40 minutes ago, doublea1971 said:

@LonghaulIt wasn't, and Caslen missed his chance to make a number of the people holding $$$ over Tanner/Frank's head look silly by calling them on that and saying, "we don't want the MUSC money, if it comes with the strings attached that you are describing".

Regardless, we are where we are.  Like @kingofnerf said, hopefully next year the ship is righted.  If so, this whole conversation is just a big, ugly, bad dream.  We move on and don't look back.

Personally, I'm ready to focus on the 2021-22 team, what it looks like, what the strengths and weaknesses are, and begin to talk about next year.  I'm done with all this Frank Martin silliness that has, unfortunately, taken up too much press time around Columbia in recent months.  He's the coach for at least one more year.  Even, if you don't care for the man, let's get behind the young men who remain in Gamecock uniforms and support them in their endeavors.

All 3 or 4 of them. 
 

Seriously, I understand your point, and now that it’s done, I hope Frank wins and wins big, but this smells of Muschamp to me. I stayed behind Muschamp for way too long, thinking he would turn it around. Both Muschamp and Martin continued to get worse, so I don’t see Frank magically getting it figured out, and turning the team into a tournament team, especially after how many have left, but we will see.  I sincerely hope I’m wrong. 

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51 minutes ago, GregoryHouse said:

I am in support of CFM staying because I truly believe he is a good coach and can win with great players. 

I am glad that UofSC kept CFM instead of firing him after this season and it results. Regardless of the results of the season, firing CFM att would have lead to the athletic department taking a PR beating and likely would have labeled UofSC as a university that has no loyalty to its coaches after the coaches have had to plan and coach around and through a once in a lifetime event (though that take is mostly bullcrap).

I hate the methods I think CFM used to hang on to his job (which included calling in political favors and trying to go to the media with excuses). Do I know this is what happened for a fact? No. This is pure speculation on my part based on what I saw during the late part of the season and in the offseason. It could be pure coincidence that certain people stepped forward in support and that CFM also forgot to clear media events with Tanner and Caslen over the  last couple of months. 

I firmly believe that Frank has one year to make it to the NCAA tournament or Tanner and Caslen will can him. Nothing less will save his job and Frank won't be able to lean on the pandemic and Gervais Street to save him. - This I am perfectly fine with and I know Ray Tanner is behind the scene updating his contacts of potential CFM replacements to call at the end of next season. 

 

Winning will indeed be the key Frank continuing on past 2021-2022 season - as it always should be. The buyout and extension will only be there to help Frank in recruiting.

Agree with you on all points.  Winning fixes a lot of things and I would like him to succeed.  I would like to see him step up and take some blame next year if things do not go well.  I did not like how he laid it on the players shoulders so much this past season.  

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35 minutes ago, Cockyandproud said:

All 3 or 4 of them. 
 

Seriously, I understand your point, and now that it’s done, I hope Frank wins and wins big, but this smells of Muschamp to me. I stayed behind Muschamp for way too long, thinking he would turn it around. Both Muschamp and Martin continued to get worse, so I don’t see Frank magically getting it figured out, and turning the team into a tournament team, especially after how many have left, but we will see.  I sincerely hope I’m wrong. 

@Cockyandproud... TOTALLY understand that perspective.  

Assuming we lose no one else to the portal, I believe we have a REALLY strong team returning.  The two new transfer additions are very good additions, in that we gain as much as we lose (from departing players).  There are only a few more changes I would wonder about - Trey Anderson (who I would encourage to move on to the portal), and the potential return of Seventh Woods (who I believe stands to benefit enormously from one additional season in Collegiate ball).  I don't see Lawson returning, and I don't believe that either Keyshawn nor Cousinard will be leaving for the NBA.  Kitchen seems well stocked with bigs who can show dramatic improvement and increase scoring (just look at what Minott was doing in limited minutes on the floor, and out of shape).  Kitchen also looks pretty good at the PG/SG position if one assumes the return of Cousinard and looks at the addition of Carter, as well as the incoming FR players.  Biggest ?? is at PF/SF position, as we don't really know much about the incoming FR players - though Woodley seems for real.

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Here are the home attendance numbers for the 2019-20 season lest we forget.

  Date Opponent Result Score Attendance
1 11/6/2019 NORTH ALABAMA W 77-55 11,927
2 11/10/2019 WYOMING W 66-32 10,255
3 11/15/2019 CLEVELAND STATE W 90-63 10,083
4 11/19/2019 BOSTON U L 70-78 10,113
5 11/22/2019 GARDNER-WEBB W 74-69 10,022
6 12/1/2019 GEORGE WASHINGTON W 74-65 9,843
7 12/8/2019 HOUSTON L 56-76 11,164
8 12/30/2019 STETSON L 56-63 10,985
9 1/7/2020 FLORIDA L 68-81 10,651
10 1/15/2020 KENTUCKY W 81-78 18,000
11 1/25/2020 VANDERBILT W 90-64 12,393
12 2/1/2020 MISSOURI W 76-54 14,678
13 2/8/2020 TEXAS A&M W 74-54 13,388
14 2/15/2020 TENNESSEE W 63-61 15,085
15 2/22/2020 LSU L 80-86 15,979
16 2/26/2020 UGA W (OT) 94-90 11,613
17 3/3/2020 MSST W 83-71 10,889
           
        Total Att. 207,068
        Avg Att. 12,180

Attendance was a moot point this season for sure, but it's still a critical part of our team's success.  Frank's teams, with the exception of this past season, have produced consistently high attendance revenue despite a disappointing record sometimes.

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On 4/9/2021 at 3:20 PM, Cockyandproud said:

All 3 or 4 of them. 
 

Seriously, I understand your point, and now that it’s done, I hope Frank wins and wins big, but this smells of Muschamp to me. I stayed behind Muschamp for way too long, thinking he would turn it around. Both Muschamp and Martin continued to get worse, so I don’t see Frank magically getting it figured out, and turning the team into a tournament team, especially after how many have left, but we will see.  I sincerely hope I’m wrong. 

Because Muschamp was so successful, Martin is the most successful mens basketball coach by far since McGuire and he won more NCAA games in one year than our programs history combined but yeah smells like mediocre muschamp....

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2 minutes ago, GMB2USC23 said:

Because Muschamp was so successful, Martin is the most successful mens basketball coach by far since McGuire and he won more NCAA games in one year than our programs history combined but yeah smells like mediocre muschamp....

And Frank has squandered the Final Four run. He has a losing record since then. So, yes, he started off well and went downhill. Just like Muschamp. 

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3 minutes ago, Cockyandproud said:

And Frank has squandered the Final Four run. He has a losing record since then. So, yes, he started off well and went downhill. Just like Muschamp. 

He's had one losing season since his 3rd year at USC, that was this year? The year he battled Covid not once but twice...WOW! LMAO Martin started off losing, turned it around in 2 seasons and went to the Final Four in year 5 and he is 153-133 as our coach so you are incorrect on every level!

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5 minutes ago, GMB2USC23 said:

He's had one losing season since his 3rd year at USC, that was this year? The year he battled Covid not once but twice...WOW! LMAO Martin started off losing, turned it around in 2 seasons and went to the Final Four in year 5 and he is 153-133 as our coach so you are incorrect on every level!

Since the Final Four appearance, Carolina has gone 57-59, which is a losing record, just like I said. 

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3 minutes ago, Cockyandproud said:

Since the Final Four appearance, Carolina has gone 57-59, which is a losing record, just like I said. 

Due to a season that the coach in question had Covid not once but twice, a year that the team was able to practice at best 65% of the time together they usually would and less than that with the head coach present but I told you this already and yet you bring it up again as if it is a valid point in showing how Martin is like Muschamp...WOW

Look, Martin is by far the most respected basketball coach we have had since Odom or Fogler, he is putting players in the NBA and consistently wins with a proven track record of success in the tourney. If we release him it will put our program back to the Horn days when idiots thought it was a good idea to fire Odom and hire the young gun...BRILLIANT!!

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13 minutes ago, GMB2USC23 said:

Due to a season that the coach in question had Covid not once but twice, a year that the team was able to practice at best 65% of the time together they usually would and less than that with the head coach present but I told you this already and yet you bring it up again as if it is a valid point in showing how Martin is like Muschamp...WOW

Look, Martin is by far the most respected basketball coach we have had since Odom or Fogler, he is putting players in the NBA and consistently wins with a proven track record of success in the tourney. If we release him it will put our program back to the Horn days when idiots thought it was a good idea to fire Odom and hire the young gun...BRILLIANT!!

And I’ve shown you the record, yet you continue to tout what a great coach Martin is. Muschamp looked good on paper, and he did well at the beginning, a cramped out. It’s the exact same thing. I don’t care what he DID, what is he doing?  He’s lost it. He was a good coach, but he isn’t anymore. If you like him, good for you, I hope you enjoy next year, when we will probably suck again. If we don’t, great!  I don’t care what hardships he had to deal with. Every team in the country had to deal with protocols and such. Adapt and overcome. I would be thrilled to be wrong, but I’m pretty sure a year from now, we will be dealing with another failure of a season. His own players don’t have enough faith in him to stick around. He’s the coach, and I’ll be hoping he wins, just like I did with Muschamp, but I learned my lesson with him. When a coach is making excuses and blaming players, he’s the problem. 

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1 hour ago, Cockyandproud said:

And I’ve shown you the record, yet you continue to tout what a great coach Martin is. Muschamp looked good on paper, and he did well at the beginning, a cramped out. It’s the exact same thing. I don’t care what he DID, what is he doing?  He’s lost it. He was a good coach, but he isn’t anymore. If you like him, good for you, I hope you enjoy next year, when we will probably suck again. If we don’t, great!  I don’t care what hardships he had to deal with. Every team in the country had to deal with protocols and such. Adapt and overcome. I would be thrilled to be wrong, but I’m pretty sure a year from now, we will be dealing with another failure of a season. His own players don’t have enough faith in him to stick around. He’s the coach, and I’ll be hoping he wins, just like I did with Muschamp, but I learned my lesson with him. When a coach is making excuses and blaming players, he’s the problem. 

Only Felton and McGuire have better win %'s of coaches with more than 1 season and Martin owns half our tourney wins....

What other coach had Covid twice and was successful, not every team had a coach catch Covid so not every team delt with the same protocols. I have never heard a Frank Martin coaches kid say one negative thing about the man, not have I heard Martin blame his kids. I have heard him hold them accountable, I've heard him try to motivate them through the press but I have heard him on many occasions that it starts and ends with the head coach! His system is proven and his success in coaching kids is undeniable, his success in holding kids accountable is undeniable, his teams consistently get better as the season progresses and play their best ball at the end of the year!

Next years team could have a bunch of hungry athletes competing in a healthy competition for playing time with a good mix of youth and experience if Coussinard and Bryant return like I believe at least one will with high Hope's both come back with Lawson for a shot at greatness 

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3 hours ago, GMB2USC23 said:

Only Felton and McGuire have better win %'s of coaches with more than 1 season and Martin owns half our tourney wins....

What other coach had Covid twice and was successful, not every team had a coach catch Covid so not every team delt with the same protocols. I have never heard a Frank Martin coaches kid say one negative thing about the man, not have I heard Martin blame his kids. I have heard him hold them accountable, I've heard him try to motivate them through the press but I have heard him on many occasions that it starts and ends with the head coach! His system is proven and his success in coaching kids is undeniable, his success in holding kids accountable is undeniable, his teams consistently get better as the season progresses and play their best ball at the end of the year!

Next years team could have a bunch of hungry athletes competing in a healthy competition for playing time with a good mix of youth and experience if Coussinard and Bryant return like I believe at least one will with high Hope's both come back with Lawson for a shot at greatness 

I realize no season in any sport is guaranteed, but I don’t see it happening. I would be very happy to be wrong, and I would be thrilled to see the Gamecocks make the tournament next year. I sincerely hope you are right. However, I continually thought Muschamp would figure it out and turn it around, and we all know how that worked out. Perhaps I’m just jaded, but time will tell. 

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On 4/11/2021 at 12:21 PM, GMB2USC23 said:

consistently wins with a proven track record of success in the tourney.

That's a push. He's been to the tourney one out of eight years he was eligible to do so. And all the comparisons to our past coaches tells me is that they were even worse. I hope Frank wins next year, I really do. But I don't think the odds are good.

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On 4/13/2021 at 7:56 PM, Swayin said:

That's a push. He's been to the tourney one out of eight years he was eligible to do so. And all the comparisons to our past coaches tells me is that they were even worse. I hope Frank wins next year, I really do. But I don't think the odds are good.

He has only coached at South Carolina?? 

I think he is going to have a loaded roster with a few swiss army knife inside out players that will make it his best defensive team as a head coach. 

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8 hours ago, GMB2USC23 said:

He has only coached at South Carolina?? 

I think he is going to have a loaded roster with a few swiss army knife inside out players that will make it his best defensive team as a head coach. 

What he did 10+ years ago for another team has nothing to do with the argument for or against why he should still be our coach. 

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6 hours ago, GMB2USC23 said:

Yeah, you make the rules on what facts are relevant in this argument Karen, sorry???? Wow!

Not making any rules. Just pointing out that "bbbbut Kansas State" is a laughable way to promote someone getting an extension, If you have to dig that far back maybe you should rethink your position.

"Hey, Boss, I'd like a raise. I had a really great sales quarter - four years ago."

"You want a raise because you had a good quarter four years ago?"

"Hell yes. And don't forget that great quarter I had 10 years ago!"

"You didn't even work here then."

"So?"

 

On 4/11/2021 at 2:46 PM, GMB2USC23 said:

his teams consistently get better as the season progresses and play their best ball at the end of the year!

Except for this year, right, when they were 1 for their last 10? Last year they were 5-5 in their last 10 games. The year before that they were 5-5. Year before that they won 4 of their last 13. Year before that they were 4-6. Year before that, 5-5. When does this mythical "consistently play better at the end" thing start again? OK, back to it - year before that, 5-5. Year before that, yup, you guess it, 5-5. I'll stop there.

In sum: Color me unconvinced by your "argument."

Your pal,

Karen

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7 hours ago, Swayin said:

Not making any rules. Just pointing out that "bbbbut Kansas State" is a laughable way to promote someone getting an extension, If you have to dig that far back maybe you should rethink your position.

"Hey, Boss, I'd like a raise. I had a really great sales quarter - four years ago."

"You want a raise because you had a good quarter four years ago?"

"Hell yes. And don't forget that great quarter I had 10 years ago!"

"You didn't even work here then."

"So?"

 

Except for this year, right, when they were 1 for their last 10? Last year they were 5-5 in their last 10 games. The year before that they were 5-5. Year before that they won 4 of their last 13. Year before that they were 4-6. Year before that, 5-5. When does this mythical "consistently play better at the end" thing start again? OK, back to it - year before that, 5-5. Year before that, yup, you guess it, 5-5. I'll stop there.

In sum: Color me unconvinced by your "argument."

Your pal,

Karen

That was so much better than what I had in my head.

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On 4/19/2021 at 1:42 AM, Swayin said:

Not making any rules. Just pointing out that "bbbbut Kansas State" is a laughable way to promote someone getting an extension, If you have to dig that far back maybe you should rethink your position.

"Hey, Boss, I'd like a raise. I had a really great sales quarter - four years ago."

"You want a raise because you had a good quarter four years ago?"

"Hell yes. And don't forget that great quarter I had 10 years ago!"

"You didn't even work here then."

"So?"

 

Except for this year, right, when they were 1 for their last 10? Last year they were 5-5 in their last 10 games. The year before that they were 5-5. Year before that they won 4 of their last 13. Year before that they were 4-6. Year before that, 5-5. When does this mythical "consistently play better at the end" thing start again? OK, back to it - year before that, 5-5. Year before that, yup, you guess it, 5-5. I'll stop there.

In sum: Color me unconvinced by your "argument."

Your pal,

Karen

So he was asking for a raise? 

No one said but Kansas St, simply stating he had proven success in the tourney and without a doubt more proven than any coach we have had or have the possibility to hire, change my mind

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2 hours ago, GMB2USC23 said:

No one said but Kansas St, simply stating he had proven success in the tourney and without a doubt more proven than any coach we have had or have the possibility to hire, change my mind

I guess I would say that it is wasting time to convince anyone of anything when they are sure that a guy who has been to the tourney once in his last eight attempts, has a losing record here, a losing conference record here, and just finished the season with 2 SEC wins is "the best coach we have the possibility to hire." Either that or we should just #$%^can men's BB and take up water polo, because if that's the best we could possibly do, we are setting a new high bar for mediocrity.

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12 hours ago, Swayin said:

I guess I would say that it is wasting time to convince anyone of anything when they are sure that a guy who has been to the tourney once in his last eight attempts, has a losing record here, a losing conference record here, and just finished the season with 2 SEC wins is "the best coach we have the possibility to hire." Either that or we should just #$%^can men's BB and take up water polo, because if that's the best we could possibly do, we are setting a new high bar for mediocrity.

To say it another way, @Swayin won't be swayed.

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18 hours ago, GMB2USC23 said:

So he was asking for a raise? 

No one said but Kansas St, simply stating he had proven success in the tourney and without a doubt more proven than any coach we have had or have the possibility to hire, change my mind

Dave Odom's record was far superior to Frank Martin in terms of NCAA prior to coming USC

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8 hours ago, STS said:

Dave Odom's record was far superior to Frank Martin in terms of NCAA prior to coming USC

And It isn't even close...Dave Odom also had a better career at South Carolina...more twenty win seasons and far more post season tournament appearences...including back to back NIT titles...all in fewer years...and he has a better overall winning percentage. Dave Odom is in something like 5 or 6 different sports/coaching Hall of Fames...including the NC sports HOF and the Wake Forest HOF. Nothing about Frank Martin comes close to Odom's career.

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11 hours ago, LBC said:

And It isn't even close...Dave Odom also had a better career at South Carolina...more twenty win seasons and far more post season tournament appearences...including back to back NIT titles...all in fewer years...and he has a better overall winning percentage. Dave Odom is in something like 5 or 6 different sports/coaching Hall of Fames...including the NC sports HOF and the Wake Forest HOF. Nothing about Frank Martin comes close to Odom's career.

I just don't get the love fest with Frank Martin

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