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36 minutes ago, Ace Dilcock said:

Stop it. The point - and it cannot be argued - is that Lawson is a much better shooter. Your excuses are bass ackwards - Dozier got more open looks and less emphasis from the defense because the other team was looking to stop Sin first. And Lawson still had much better shooting percentages across the board - twos, three, free throws.

I would put them pretty even outside of that - ball handling, assists, rebounding, D - but shooting/scoring is a big part of the game.

I agree that we need to start winning, and soon - but I also believe that Frank should get a full, healthy year before making a decision on letting him go. If we return most of our talent, have no major malfunctions with getting in practices and games, and still suck - it is time to make a change. Doing it based on this year - after four straight winning seasons in the SEC coming into this year - is beyond unfair.

I feel they are two very different kinds of players playing on two very different teams: PJ was more of a dribble-drive penetrator, whereas AJ is more creative about finding open looks beyond the arc, and I agree that AJ is a better 3-point shooter. Comparing their soph years since PJ was only here for two and it was AJ's last full season, AJ is a better free-throw shooter but has more turnovers than assists; PJ averaged 1 more assist per game and had a positive AST/TO ratio, and averaged more than a rebound a game more than AJ as a soph (4.8 vs 3.7) and more blocks per game as well. And yes, shooting and scoring is a big part of the game, and PJ averaged more PPG than AJ - 13.9 vs 13.4, sophomore to sophomore. They are both good players! But I remain completely unconvinced at the blanket statement that AJ was more talented as a college player. And as for Frank, what good is it to have a winning conference record for the past four years but only 1 trip to the Big Dance? To me what has killed him those other three seasons were the mystifying early season losses to the likes of UNI, BU, Stony Brook, Wofford, Wyoming, Illinois State, etc. etc.

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13 minutes ago, Swayin said:

I feel they are two very different kinds of players playing on two very different teams: PJ was more of a dribble-drive penetrator, whereas AJ is more creative about finding open looks beyond the arc, and I agree that AJ is a better 3-point shooter. Comparing their soph years since PJ was only here for two and it was AJ's last full season, AJ is a better free-throw shooter but has more turnovers than assists; PJ averaged 1 more assist per game and had a positive AST/TO ratio, and averaged more than a rebound a game more than AJ as a soph (4.8 vs 3.7) and more blocks per game as well. And yes, shooting and scoring is a big part of the game, and PJ averaged more PPG than AJ - 13.9 vs 13.4, sophomore to sophomore. They are both good players! But I remain completely unconvinced at the blanket statement that AJ was more talented as a college player. And as for Frank, what good is it to have a winning conference record for the past four years but only 1 trip to the Big Dance? To me what has killed him those other three seasons were the mystifying early season losses to the likes of UNI, BU, Stony Brook, Wofford, Wyoming, Illinois State, etc. etc.

Great point - shot blocking is the key stat for Guards, LOL.

I covered all your excuses in advance. Lawson had more rebounds and assists as a Freshman when they were only a minute off in minutes played per game, PJ had the edge as a Sophomore - but played 7 minutes more than Lawson. So a push.

Which leads to every shooting and scoring stat - percentages and scoring. Lawson not only leads in EVERY stat, but it is not even close. Even with PJ playing seven more minutes as a Sophomore. If that is not a tiebreaker on who was the better player, then there is no such thing. Even if you write off  the point differential by saying that Lawson had to do more, that makes the disparity in shooting percentages - wide margins on threes, twos and Free Throws - that much more glaring.

I think most people would agree that a winning conference record is a good thing - don't you? And four years in a row is even better? I agree that early season losses have been puzzling and kept us out of the dance - but Frank plays tough games early to get the team ready, which is a reason why we win most of our conference games.

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10 minutes ago, Ace Dilcock said:

Great point - shot blocking is the key stat for Guards, LOL.

I covered all your excuses in advance. Lawson had more rebounds and assists as a Freshman when they were only a minute off in minutes played per game, PJ had the edge as a Sophomore - but played 7 minutes more than Lawson. So a push.

I think most people would agree that a winning conference record is a good thing - don't you? And four years in a row is even better? I agree that early season losses have been puzzling and kept us out of the dance - but Frank plays tough games early to get the team ready, which is a reason why we win most of our conference games.

Why do you feel the need to be so snarky? These aren't battles, they are discussions, and this isn't the politics forum, we are just talking about basketball? Like why do you feel the need to label my points as "excuses?"  Lively discussions are great, I'm all for them. I enjoy digging into the numbers to push an opinion, but damn dude you make it tough to want to contribute to the dialog.

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15 hours ago, Swayin said:

Why do you feel the need to be so snarky? These aren't battles, they are discussions, and this isn't the politics forum, we are just talking about basketball? Like why do you feel the need to label my points as "excuses?"  Lively discussions are great, I'm all for them. I enjoy digging into the numbers to push an opinion, but damn dude you make it tough to want to contribute to the dialog.

Why do you feel the need to defend a position that is obviously wrong, LOL? You were pushing Dozier being the man and I disagreed based on what I saw - and the stats back it up. Even you have to admit that having to point out an edge in blocks - for two guards - is weak. Just trying to keep you honest and the discussion real.

But if you want to discuss - Lawson has been the better player for us, based on the eyeball test and the numbers. Dozier was talented and had a lot of upside as a 6'7" PG, and he may wind up lasting longer in the NBA for that reason. And he was what we needed at the time - a PG, and one that helped our Defense with his length.

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12 hours ago, Longhaul said:

How sad is it that someone would log out and post as “guest” to tout themselves as a powerful analyst.  

How sad is it that I logged on at work as a Guest six months ago - because I did not have my password - and that is still in your head? So no, I did not "log out", I was not able to "log in".

Swayin' had a valid complaint - you don't. You went in the opposite direction of a open discussion about basketball. Stay focus.

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25 minutes ago, Ace Dilcock said:

How sad is it that I logged on at work as a Guest six months ago - because I did not have my password - and that is still in your head? So no, I did not "log out", I was not able to "log in".

Swayin' had a valid complaint - you don't. You went in the opposite direction of a open discussion about basketball. Stay focus.

lol.  At least you are not having discussions with yourself this time around and telling everyone they had no idea it was you.  Anyway back to the topic. 

The track record has not been good for Frank.  Way too many players being signed only to find out they cannot compete at this level and they are gone.  I agree we cannot survive with a team full of 1 and dones, but you need to land at least one player each year that has the potential to be a one and done to give the team a spark while they rest of the lower level talents develop.  Every year we miss out on some really good players coming out of our own backyard and you would think that a good coach could land some of these and not have to go overseas or to Canada to find better talent.  We can go back and forth all day as it is just opinion.  I had high hopes for this team and for Frank, it just feels like every year there is some excuse and we are always one player away from really doing well.  9-years in I am not sure we are any better today than we were before the 2 stand out years his teams have had.  I am not saying he should not be back next year, but it this team does not have a winning record next year it is time to move on.  

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1 hour ago, Ace Dilcock said:

Why do you feel the need to defend a position that is obviously wrong, LOL? You were pushing Dozier being the man and I disagreed based on what I saw - and the stats back it up. Even you have to admit that having to point out an edge in blocks - for two guards - is weak. Just trying to keep you honest and the discussion real.

Oh well.

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58 minutes ago, Longhaul said:

lol.  At least you are not having discussions with yourself this time around and telling everyone they had no idea it was you.  Anyway back to the topic. 

The track record has not been good for Frank.  Way too many players being signed only to find out they cannot compete at this level and they are gone.  I agree we cannot survive with a team full of 1 and dones, but you need to land at least one player each year that has the potential to be a one and done to give the team a spark while they rest of the lower level talents develop.  Every year we miss out on some really good players coming out of our own backyard and you would think that a good coach could land some of these and not have to go overseas or to Canada to find better talent.  We can go back and forth all day as it is just opinion.  I had high hopes for this team and for Frank, it just feels like every year there is some excuse and we are always one player away from really doing well.  9-years in I am not sure we are any better today than we were before the 2 stand out years his teams have had.  I am not saying he should not be back next year, but it this team does not have a winning record next year it is time to move on.  

"This time around"?? There is no this time around - I have not logged in as Guest for the last six months. But I think that it is absolutely hilarious how butt-hurt you guys still are, six months later.

 I would prefer finding in-state players, and hate that we missed on under the radar guys like Ja Morant. We had our best success with Sin and Dozier, two in-state guys. But don't forget that we have Seventh and Trae from in-state now, along with Benson. So Frank does recruit in-state.

We were never going to get a big-name recruit like Zion Williamson. But Frank has connections with a lot of HS coaches in a lot of different locations - as long as he finds guys that can play (like Lawson, Couisnard, Bryant), I am fine with his recruiting.

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So Ace, what's it like to always be correct?  What's it like to pre-determine the other person's argument?  I do think you are very knowledgeable and use facts to back up your "OPINION".  There is no right or wrong when discussing most aspects of sports.  It is usually opinion based - even when stats are involved because we talk about different years, teams, situations etc.  I enjoy most of your knowledge and posts but I will in this instance say you are just being obnoxious.  Swayin' is giving his opinion and you yours.  Neither side is right or wrong.  It's sports.

My opinion is Frank needs to win more.  I am fine with 1 more year, but if the team does not improve next year, time to move on from Frank IMO. 

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27 minutes ago, Homebrewcock said:

So Ace, what's it like to always be correct?  What's it like to pre-determine the other person's argument?  I do think you are very knowledgeable and use facts to back up your "OPINION".  There is no right or wrong when discussing most aspects of sports.  It is usually opinion based - even when stats are involved because we talk about different years, teams, situations etc.  I enjoy most of your knowledge and posts but I will in this instance say you are just being obnoxious.  Swayin' is giving his opinion and you yours.  Neither side is right or wrong.  It's sports.

My opinion is Frank needs to win more.  I am fine with 1 more year, but if the team does not improve next year, time to move on from Frank IMO. 

I do not pretend to always be right, in sports or politics. Things are not Black or White, they are some shade of gray. For the record, I have never won an argument with Ms. Ace.

But if you look at Dozier versus Lawson, and I note that Lawson is better because he scores more and at a higher percentage, that is pretty strong evidence in my favor. Not saying that it is totally Black, but it is at least Charcoal.

Your last sentence is spot on. Frank has been a good coach, here and at K State. He has had a rash of problems, and not just with his team - how many people do you know have had covid twice? - and deserves to show what he can do post-covid. If he is not successful, and if he cannot get healthy personally (he is carrying a lot of weight now), it will be time to move on. 

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On 2/26/2021 at 9:24 AM, Ace Dilcock said:

But if you look at Dozier versus Lawson, and I note that Lawson is better because he scores more and at a higher percentage, that is pretty strong evidence in my favor. Not saying that it is totally Black, but it is at least Charcoal.

OK, let's see if we can just talk numbers, sophomore year to sophomore year: 

  • Dozier averaged more PPG, 13.9 vs 13.4
  • Dozier averaged more RPG, 4.8 vs 3.7
  • Dozier averaged more assists per game, 2.8 vs 1.9
  • Dozier averaged more steals per game, 1.7 vs 1.2
  • Dozier had more assists than turnovers; Lawson had more turnovers than assists
  • Dozier had three times as many blocks; you dismiss that as a stat but he almost had as many per game as Kotsar, our tallest player, so it's a valid difference IMO.
  • I agree, Lawson has better numbers from behind the arc, 34% to 30% (rounded both up)
  • Their 2-pt FG % is very close, but edge to Lawson, 49% to 45%.

Lawson is having his best year as a Gamecock this year - his numbers are higher in most categories than they were in his second year, which is great. I wish PJ had stayed so we could see what a third year with Sin gone to the league would have resulted in. But I look at the numbers above, taking into account the differences in the teams and playing styles, and I don't see that Lawson is unequivocally the better player when you compare the two seasons. I know you disagree Ace, but I think it's OK to have two different takes and just agree to disagree.

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2 minutes ago, Swayin said:

OK, let's see if we can just talk numbers, sophomore year to sophomore year: 

  • Dozier averaged more PPG, 13.9 vs 13.4
  • Dozier averaged more RPG, 4.8 vs 3.7
  • Dozier averaged more assists per game, 2.8 vs 1.9
  • Dozier averaged more steals per game, 1.7 vs 1.2
  • Dozier had more assists than turnovers; Lawson had more turnovers than assists
  • Dozier had three times as many blocks; you dismiss that as a stat but he almost had as many per game as Kotsar, our tallest player, so it's a valid difference IMO.
  • I agree, Lawson has better numbers from behind the arc, 34% to 30% (rounded both up)
  • Their 2-pt FG % is very close, but edge to Lawson, 49% to 45%.

Lawson is having his best year as a Gamecock this year - his numbers are higher in most categories than they were in his second year, which is great. I wish PJ had stayed so we could see what a third year with Sin gone to the league would have resulted in. But I look at the numbers above, taking into account the differences in the teams and playing styles, and I don't see that Lawson is unequivocally the better player when you compare the two seasons. I know you disagree Ace, but I think it's OK to have two different takes and just agree to disagree.

@Swayin come on dude... watch the great win.  Drop the Lawson/Dozier stuff.

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46 minutes ago, Swayin said:

OK, let's see if we can just talk numbers, sophomore year to sophomore year: 

  • Dozier averaged more PPG, 13.9 vs 13.4
  • Dozier averaged more RPG, 4.8 vs 3.7
  • Dozier averaged more assists per game, 2.8 vs 1.9
  • Dozier averaged more steals per game, 1.7 vs 1.2
  • Dozier had more assists than turnovers; Lawson had more turnovers than assists
  • Dozier had three times as many blocks; you dismiss that as a stat but he almost had as many per game as Kotsar, our tallest player, so it's a valid difference IMO.
  • I agree, Lawson has better numbers from behind the arc, 34% to 30% (rounded both up)
  • Their 2-pt FG % is very close, but edge to Lawson, 49% to 45%.

Lawson is having his best year as a Gamecock this year - his numbers are higher in most categories than they were in his second year, which is great. I wish PJ had stayed so we could see what a third year with Sin gone to the league would have resulted in. But I look at the numbers above, taking into account the differences in the teams and playing styles, and I don't see that Lawson is unequivocally the better player when you compare the two seasons. I know you disagree Ace, but I think it's OK to have two different takes and just agree to disagree.

Ah, the battle is joined. 

First, you cannot throw out their Freshman years - if one guy only played two years, you cannot ignore half his body of work. The numbers:

  • Lawson averaged 13.4 points, Dozier averaged 6.7
  • Lawson averaged 4.3 rebounds, Dozier averaged 3.0
  • Lawson averaged 2.9 assists, Dozier averaged 2.1
  • Lawson shot 45.1% from the floor, Dozier shot 42.2%
  • Lawson shot 35.8% from three, Dozier shot 21.3%
  • Lawson shot 66.7% from the line, Dozier shot 54.4%

Lawson does not just have the edge, that is an ass-cutting - and he would still have an edge if you pro-rated based on minutes played (rebounds and assists would be almost even).

Looking at their Sophomore years, you left out the FT percentage - which is understandable, as Lawson has the edge there, 72.4% to 59.7%. Which is the thing - Lawson has the edge in every scoring and shooting percentage stat - he is just a better shooter.

The edge in blocks equates to Dozier having one extra block every five games (Silva was our shot bloker then, not Kotsar - Kotsar was vertically challenged). Dozier also had more turnovers per game as a Sophomore, and the same number as a Freshman - despite playing 10 fewer minutes than Lawson.

They are both good players - Lawson is just a much better shooter, which gives him the edge. Dozier needed to stay and continue to improve his Offense.

 

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2 hours ago, Ace Dilcock said:

he is just a better shooter

He is. But I think PJ is a better dribble-penetrator who increasingly found a way to manufacture his own shot ... we really saw this emerge in the tournament, IMO.

OK, I'm done. We may never agree, and that's awesome! Finding the ability to disagree and move on is what I really wanted.

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2 hours ago, Swayin said:

He is. But I think PJ is a better dribble-penetrator who increasingly found a way to manufacture his own shot ... we really saw this emerge in the tournament, IMO.

OK, I'm done. We may never agree, and that's awesome! Finding the ability to disagree and move on is what I really wanted.

That is the biggest difference in their styles - Lawson drives hard and fast to the rim, but sometimes gets manhandled due to his lack of muscle. Dozier was slower and more under control - but he was going up against Point Guards, and he always had a big height advantage.

I think Dozier had an injury (shoulder?) that sidelined him in HS and it may have impacted his shooting, especially as a Freshman. But Lawson has a better stroke.

 

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