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Gary

FRank Martin's contract

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I just heard Phil Kornblut say that Frank has 2 years left on his contract after this season, but that his contract WILL NOT be extended after this season.   Not sure what all that means, but it might mean that USC is giving him another year to turn things around.  It also might mean that USC is encouraging him to leave.   It could mean both.   Frank might not be willing to accept no contract extension and might look for another job.  We will see.

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If  Tanner wants to keep Martin, I don't see why he couldn't extend Martin's contract but with a provision that there would be little or no buyout for the added years.   Not sure if Frank would accept that, but that might be a solution.    I have a feeling though that Frank will leave if he isn't given more years with a substantial buyout.   I wouldn't blame him.  But I also would think it smart for Tanner not to promise a big buyout for adding years to the contract at this point.

It might be time to start thinking about  who might replace Frank because I think we're headed in that direction.

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Frank has had health issues and he is not exactly a hot commodity right now - the team's record is getting worse and he has to get past an NCAA investigation.

The smart thing for everyone is to get past this year, get everyone healthy (including Frank himself), and have a strong, uninterrupted season in 2021-2022. If Frank is unhappy here, he can leave then with more marketability. If he has a good year, then he gets a raise and an extension.

I really like Frank and think he is our second best Men's basketball coach ever - behind another Frank. I believe that he has had some tough breaks that have kept him from getting more NCAA berths, with this year just being a continuation of that.

One option is to add incentives for success and penalties for failure. Maybe add a year if he hits a certain win level, also do bonuses for making the tournament (although he might get that already).

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12 minutes ago, Ace Dilcock said:

Frank has had health issues and he is not exactly a hot commodity right now - the team's record is getting worse and he has to get past an NCAA investigation.

The smart thing for everyone is to get past this year, get everyone healthy (including Frank himself), and have a strong, uninterrupted season in 2021-2022. If Frank is unhappy here, he can leave then with more marketability. If he has a good year, then he gets a raise and an extension.

I really like Frank and think he is our second best Men's basketball coach ever - behind another Frank. I believe that he has had some tough breaks that have kept him from getting more NCAA berths, with this year just being a continuation of that.

One option is to add incentives for success and penalties for failure. Maybe add a year if he hits a certain win level, also do bonuses for making the tournament (although he might get that already).

I heard that Frank has told Tanner that he can't recruit with only two years left on his contract, but that Tanner refuses to extend the contract.   Maybe its a negotiating ploy by Tanner.  But maybe Tanner is trying to end Martin's tenure at USC without having to pay a big buyout.   That is what I think it is.   Without at least a four year contract, Frank can't tell recruits he'll be around for their careers, and recruiting will suffer.    I'll be surprised if Frank Martin is the coach next season.   I don't think Tanner is worried about Frank getting another job.   Tanner doesn't want to pay out another fortune to another coach and he thinks this is the right time to change coaches.   I'm guessing, but that's what it looks like to me.    

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9 hours ago, Gary said:

I heard that Frank has told Tanner that he can't recruit with only two years left on his contract, but that Tanner refuses to extend the contract.   Maybe its a negotiating ploy by Tanner.  But maybe Tanner is trying to end Martin's tenure at USC without having to pay a big buyout.   That is what I think it is.   Without at least a four year contract, Frank can't tell recruits he'll be around for their careers, and recruiting will suffer.    I'll be surprised if Frank Martin is the coach next season.   I don't think Tanner is worried about Frank getting another job.   Tanner doesn't want to pay out another fortune to another coach and he thinks this is the right time to change coaches.   I'm guessing, but that's what it looks like to me.    

Unless Seventh decides to hang it up or Laswon finally decides to go pro, we have no open scholarships. And I doubt that either of them wants to go out on a down note.

So we have no scholarships available for 2021. Maybe someone will transfer, but we could fill that spot with a transfer. That gives Frank the next season to clean things up - with a healthy team and a  full preseason to show he can still coach. If Frank wants out, a good season will make him more marketable - and justify an extension if he stays.

I think there is a way to do it - maybe include a clause that gives a bump and an extension if he makes the NCAA next year. That is a win-win for everyone, and Frank can point to his conditional extension and the fact that his team is in line for the NCAA as reasons that he will be around for the recruit's entire career.

That will also satisfy the fans - no extension without production, in the form of that elusive second NCAA berth. And it saves money if Frank cannot turn it around - Muschamp's deal is the reason that Tanner is drawing the line.

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11 hours ago, Gary said:

I heard that Frank has told Tanner that he can't recruit with only two years left on his contract, but that Tanner refuses to extend the contract.   Maybe its a negotiating ploy by Tanner.  But maybe Tanner is trying to end Martin's tenure at USC without having to pay a big buyout.   That is what I think it is.   Without at least a four year contract, Frank can't tell recruits he'll be around for their careers, and recruiting will suffer.    I'll be surprised if Frank Martin is the coach next season.   I don't think Tanner is worried about Frank getting another job.   Tanner doesn't want to pay out another fortune to another coach and he thinks this is the right time to change coaches.   I'm guessing, but that's what it looks like to me.    

Gary, with all due respect, this simply is NOT true.  Frank is not having any issues with recruiting due to a short contract life.  This is just rumor mill nonsense.  In fact, if you see @Ace Dilcock’s response, re: available schollies, you’ll realize that’s not an issue at all.  Frank continues to recruit because he COULD always lose some players to the portal, or simply to other issues (see Patrick Iriel as an example).

Frank has a great relationship with Tanner.  Tanner will catch heat on ANY contract situations right now, thanks to our “friend” Will Muschamp.  But this is a non-story.  Period.

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1 hour ago, kingofnerf said:

I posted this a few months ago in another thread, but I believe we still have an open NCAA issue from the bribery scandal.

Other than the awful season so far, that may be the main reason for no contract extension.

That is also a reason that Frank is not going anywhere. No program will bring him on until that is cleared up - he simply could not get a better job, or one as good, due to his recent lack of success, health, and compliance issues.

I think we will get off easy on the NCAA thing, and we have a better (and better coached) team than we are showing. So if we stick with Frank, things should be good.

He does need to drop a few lbs. to get in better shape, but that is hard to do when you have gotten covid twice. And he is not alone with needing to get rid of the extra winter weight, LOL,

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Here's where we were this time last year for comparison in case people have forgotten. 

DATE MATCHUP RESULT
Sat, Feb 8 vs Texas A&M W 74 - 54
Wed, Feb 12 @ Georgia W 75 - 59
Sat, Feb 15 vs Tennessee W 63 - 61
Wed, Feb 19 @ Mississippi St L 76 - 79
Sat, Feb 22 vs LSU L 80 - 86
Wed, Feb 26 vs Georgia W 94 - 90
Sat, Feb 29 @ Alabama L 86 - 90
Tue, Mar 3 vs Mississippi St W 83 - 71
Sat, Mar 7 @ Vanderbilt L 74 - 83

We lost a couple but we were competitive and the atmosphere at the CLA was electric.  People remember that feeling and would certainly back the team if they could go to the games this year.

I feel like we could have had a 20-win season this year with a normal schedule and Frink staying healthy.

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23 minutes ago, kingofnerf said:

Here's where we were this time last year for comparison in case people have forgotten. 

DATE MATCHUP RESULT
Sat, Feb 8 vs Texas A&M W 74 - 54
Wed, Feb 12 @ Georgia W 75 - 59
Sat, Feb 15 vs Tennessee W 63 - 61
Wed, Feb 19 @ Mississippi St L 76 - 79
Sat, Feb 22 vs LSU L 80 - 86
Wed, Feb 26 vs Georgia W 94 - 90
Sat, Feb 29 @ Alabama L 86 - 90
Tue, Mar 3 vs Mississippi St W 83 - 71
Sat, Mar 7 @ Vanderbilt L 74 - 83

We lost a couple but we were competitive and the atmosphere at the CLA was electric.  People remember that feeling and would certainly back the team if they could go to the games this year.

I feel like we could have had a 20-win season this year with a normal schedule and Frink staying healthy.

X2. Shooting slumps are often the result of a lack of practice and game time, and we have had precious little of either one.

Minaya and Couisnard have continued to do some good things because that is instinctive, and they are well coached. But shooting is the result of repetition and confidence, and it is hard to have those things without PT.

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Like football, this season is a wash to me.  Games cancelled or postponed makes it hard for teams to practice and play with any consistency.  As you said Ace, without consistent PT the game will suffer - shooting, defense, conditioning and the mental aspect.  I think Frank will get another year, but not sure about his contract and how that will be handled.  My wife went to San Diego State and they only have 4 games left.  Their coach was trying to fill in some more games but everyone is in their conference schedule.  Their last game is Feb 27th which will be their 23rd game.  We have only played 15 games and it's almost the end of February.  Looks like we will end up with 19 games and then the SEC tourney I guess.  Makes it tough to get better in that type of season.

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Lawson is gone after this season, which means in my mind you are taking the one decent scorer off a bad team. Next season will be even worse than this one, and then Frank will be gone. I give him props for  one of my top two or three Gamecock sports  memories of all time - the Final Four run was simply magical - but before that, and even worse, failing to capitalize on if afterwards - it has been a tough row to hoe being a USC men's BB fan.

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We have a bad team but not bad players, and Lawson is not definitely gone.

If Lawson stays, we just lose Woods, who has helped in three games and hurt us in the rest. Normal development and getting more practice could dramatically improve what we ae seeing or the floor this year.

Frank deserves the chance to have a full year to coach his players. If we suck next year, I do not think that we will need to fire him - I expect that he will leave on his own.

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20 hours ago, Ace Dilcock said:

We have a bad team but not bad players, and Lawson is not definitely gone.

If Lawson stays, we just lose Woods, who has helped in three games and hurt us in the rest. Normal development and getting more practice could dramatically improve what we ae seeing or the floor this year.

Frank deserves the chance to have a full year to coach his players. If we suck next year, I do not think that we will need to fire him - I expect that he will leave on his own.

I fundamentally agree with you, but I also think the open NCAA issue needs to be resolved first.  Why let the guy worry himself into an early grave?

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Statistically,  Hannibal and Moss are making more of their shots (2's and 3's) than Lawson is.   Their percentages are better.  Hannibal needs to slow down just a bit and Moss needs to be a catch and shoot guy, not a PG.   With Couisnard out, both of those guys need to play more.  Especially Hannibal.   I have been down on Moss, but when I looked at his shooting stats, I was surprised at how good his shooting has been.   He can help us on offense if we use him as a shooter and not a ball handler.

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1 hour ago, Gary said:

Statistically,  Hannibal and Moss are making more of their shots (2's and 3's) than Lawson is.   Their percentages are better.  Hannibal needs to slow down just a bit and Moss needs to be a catch and shoot guy, not a PG.   With Couisnard out, both of those guys need to play more.  Especially Hannibal.   I have been down on Moss, but when I looked at his shooting stats, I was surprised at how good his shooting has been.   He can help us on offense if we use him as a shooter and not a ball handler.

Moss has a nifty running one hander, and actually looks better shooting that than he does the three. If he looks for that shot first, then the three might open up.

Moss should be a 2G - he has a weak/slow dribble while Hannibal has a strong/fast one. Hannibal should start at PG with Seventh as the back-up. 

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1 hour ago, Gary said:

Statistically,  Hannibal and Moss are making more of their shots (2's and 3's) than Lawson is.   Their percentages are better.  Hannibal needs to slow down just a bit and Moss needs to be a catch and shoot guy, not a PG.   With Couisnard out, both of those guys need to play more.  Especially Hannibal.   I have been down on Moss, but when I looked at his shooting stats, I was surprised at how good his shooting has been.   He can help us on offense if we use him as a shooter and not a ball handler.

And therein lies the rub... Did you look at Moss's defensive statistics or his Asst/Turnover ratio?  23 PFs, which is two less than Cousinard (who has been a starter and gets MUCH heavier minutes in the rotation), and 17/15 for the ratio.  That's a positive number, but just barely (Cousinard, by comparison is at 50/38).  

I don't think you would see nearly as much of Moss if Seventh Woods was putting up more respectable numbers.  Woods is 36 PFs and 34/34 ratio.  We have a depth of Cousinard and then pretty much drop off to... no one reliable other than Hannibal.

Moss in my mind is less of a catch and shoot option than is either Trey Anderson or is Nathan Nelson (who is hitting a ridiculous 6 of 8 from the field and 5 of 6 from behind the arc).  But Moss has the "experience" edge over either of those guys.  Moss, unfortunately, is a liability on defense, and his ball handling skills are a liability on offense.  So you in essence lose on both ends of the court, even if he's shooting well because he cannot contribute other than being a shooter.  If he were getting fouled on his shots and going to the line, I'd agree with you.  If he were taking twice the amount of shots, again, I could potentially get on board with what you're saying.  Unfortunately, he's had 6 FT attempts all season (though he did make a respectable 4 of 6).  For a guy with his minutes, that is TERRIBLE.  You've got to get some guys to body you as you are shooting.  He's simply getting "catch and shoot" opportunities when he's wide open (for the most part), and no one there to touch him.

Not trying to be a Debbie Downer here... just saying that our PG situation is worse than we have been giving it credit for being.  I think you'll see Moss gone after this season in order that Frank can get a reliable backup, seeing as the Seventh Woods experiment didn't pay dividends.  (And, as everyone here knows, I was excited about Seventh... I thought he would be a much more reliable answer as a backup at the PG position than he has proven to be).

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8 minutes ago, Ace Dilcock said:

Moss has a nifty running one hander, and actually looks better shooting that than he does the three. If he looks for that shot first, then the three might open up.

Moss should be a 2G - he has a weak/slow dribble while Hannibal has a strong/fast one. Hannibal should start at PG with Seventh as the back-up. 

Looks like we replied about the same time.  I agree on Hannibal first, with Seventh in reserve.

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I agree on Moss, Double AA, also on Seventh.

The SEC is not as polished as other conferences, but it is athletic as any. Moss would be a better fit in one of the other leagues, where his athleticism is not as much of a liability.

Hannibal is our best option at PG, followed by a healthy Couisnard. We have two Guards coming in and I would expect one of them to play  PG.

One forgotten player is Ford Cooper, Jr. out of Charlotte. He was a 4* in HS and transferred from Missouri State, where he started 5 games as a true Freshman. I am not sure why he has been MIA, but I would think that he would be a better PG option than Moss - he had an assist to turnover ratio of 2.9, albeit at a lesser level.

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1 minute ago, Ace Dilcock said:

I agree on Moss, Double AA, also on Seventh.

The SEC is not as polished as other conferences, but it is athletic as any. Moss would be a better fit in one of the other leagues, where his athleticism is not as much of a liability.

Hannibal is our best option at PG, followed by a healthy Couisnard. We have two Guards coming in and I would expect one of them to play  PG.

One forgotten player is Ford Cooper, Jr. out of Charlotte. He was a 4* in HS and transferred from Missouri State, where he started 5 games as a true Freshman. I am not sure why he has been MIA, but I would think that he would be a better PG option than Moss - he had an assist to turnover ratio of 2.9, albeit at a lesser level.

Cooper seems to be a case of his physicality.  He's not a very big guy (he's listed as an inch taller than Seventh and 3 pound heavier, though I don't believe that to be true), and I think he takes too much of a beating at the up-tempo speed in our league.  Word on his shooting in practice is that it's pretty deadeye.  Much like Trey Anderson was given to be last season when he was nowhere to be found on the depth charts.  Give Ford a year, and continued work with the trainers (both on strength and nutrition), and I think he will reappear on the depth chart.

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17 hours ago, doublea1971 said:

Cooper seems to be a case of his physicality.  He's not a very big guy (he's listed as an inch taller than Seventh and 3 pound heavier, though I don't believe that to be true), and I think he takes too much of a beating at the up-tempo speed in our league.  Word on his shooting in practice is that it's pretty deadeye.  Much like Trey Anderson was given to be last season when he was nowhere to be found on the depth charts.  Give Ford a year, and continued work with the trainers (both on strength and nutrition), and I think he will reappear on the depth chart.

The difference between Cooper and Anderson is that Anderson is on scholarship, Cooper is not. With limited scholarship numbers and four coming in (meaning that multiple players will need to leave to get under the limit), I do not see a way for Cooper to get on scholarship. His only chance was to show something this year - which cannot happen if he does not get a chance to play.

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2 minutes ago, Ace Dilcock said:

The difference between Cooper and Anderson is that Anderson is on scholarship, Cooper is not. With limited scholarship numbers and four coming in (meaning that multiple players will need to leave to get until the limit), I do not see a way for Cooper to get on scholarship. His only chance was to show something this year - which cannot happen if he does not get a chance to play.

Well, tell that to Nathan Nelson.  ;-)

But yes... his position is a little more "at the discretion" of Coach Martin, due to not being on scholarship.

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9 minutes ago, doublea1971 said:

Well, tell that to Nathan Nelson.  ;-)

But yes... his position is a little more "at the discretion" of Coach Martin, due to not being on scholarship.

I like that Frank plays the guys that work hard and take his coaching, regardless of their press clippings or whether they are on scholarship or not. Nelson's biggest issue is hesitancy to shoot - if you are in the game because you have a good shot, and do not shoot, then you need to come back out of the game.

Nelson is actually pretty good with his D, ballhandling and rebounding - if he scored a little more, then he would get more PT. Lord knows we need more three point shooting.

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Moss can make shots, but he is a liability on defense.   

Lawson, Bryant, Leveque, Hannibal and Couisnard is our best 5, when Couisnard returns.

Cooper and Green will never be on scholarship at USC.  And neither will ever play much at USC.   I would like to see both of them transfer to somewhere they can actually play.      

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2 hours ago, Gary said:

Moss can make shots, but he is a liability on defense.   

Lawson, Bryant, Leveque, Hannibal and Couisnard is our best 5, when Couisnard returns.

Cooper and Green will never be on scholarship at USC.  And neither will ever play much at USC.   I would like to see both of them transfer to somewhere they can actually play.      

Agree on the Starting Five - with Minaya as the sixth man. But only if Couisnard and Minaya are hitting their shots.

If I was non-scholarship and I wanted a chance to play college basketball at the highest level - assuming I worked hard enough and got good enough - South Carolina would be the place I would go. Cooper came here to play close to home, with a shot at getting put on scholarship, and was a 4* guy who has already started for a D1 school.

It is not just about games. With covid hitting the team hard, we would not have the players to scrimmage without players like Cooper, Green and Nelson. Walk-ons play an important role and occasionally even make impacts in games.

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2021 at 6:27 PM, Gary said:

I just heard Phil Kornblut say that Frank has 2 years left on his contract after this season, but that his contract WILL NOT be extended after this season.   Not sure what all that means, but it might mean that USC is giving him another year to turn things around.  It also might mean that USC is encouraging him to leave.   It could mean both.   Frank might not be willing to accept no contract extension and might look for another job.  We will see.

I watched O.S.U.  last night against Texas Tech  Carolina getter call Mike Boykin  and start talking to see if he would come back to South Carolina as the head coach, he's done an good job  out there really like thru out the basketball world .  He's getting hot as an coach. Now would be the time to pull the trigger . I'd be in Oklahoma Stillwater today.

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11 hours ago, Ace Dilcock said:

Agree on the Starting Five - with Minaya as the sixth man. But only if Couisnard and Minaya are hitting their shots.

If I was non-scholarship and I wanted a chance to play college basketball at the highest level - assuming I worked hard enough and got good enough - South Carolina would be the place I would go. Cooper came here to play close to home, with a shot at getting put on scholarship, and was a 4* guy who has already started for a D1 school.

It is not just about games. With covid hitting the team hard, we would not have the players to scrimmage without players like Cooper, Green and Nelson. Walk-ons play an important role and occasionally even make impacts in games.

 Someone better call Mike Boykin at O.S.U. to see if he will come and be the next head coach at South Carolina. he played here was assistant to Dave Odom helped get some players here Frank didn't  want him on his staff.

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On ‎2‎/‎15‎/‎2021 at 6:27 PM, Gary said:

I just heard Phil Kornblut say that Frank has 2 years left on his contract after this season, but that his contract WILL NOT be extended after this season.   Not sure what all that means, but it might mean that USC is giving him another year to turn things around.  It also might mean that USC is encouraging him to leave.   It could mean both.   Frank might not be willing to accept no contract extension and might look for another job.  We will see.

I am calling Tanner today, he's got to hire Mike Boykin away from OS.U.  he has done an great job in Stillwater

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