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Bernie likes to point to Scandanavian Nations

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2 minutes ago, carolina_corpsman said:

The biggest issue I see is that people keep pointing to small, wealthy, homogeneous countries as examples of why plan X or Y will work, but it igores the reality that the U.S. is a vastly different animal.

it assumes that it can scale up to a country the size of the US....maybe it can and maybe it can't but seems like people want to find out

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2 hours ago, carolina_corpsman said:

The biggest issue I see is that people keep pointing to small, wealthy, homogeneous countries as examples of why plan X or Y will work, but it igores the reality that the U.S. is a vastly different animal.

This I actually agree with...that being said...I do find this idea that any part this video 'proves' socialism is bad a bit odd...first...the man who produced this video...and written several books and articles on the subject...is a super 'Globalist'...something our current President is wholly against. Giving speeches to places like the UN denouncing the very idea of it...meaning the Trump supporting Republicans here don't like any part of this guys actual economic philosophy even if they don't like Sweden's old system either...on top of that...the video seems to argue that the combination of socialism and capitalism is in fact the best system in the world...a balance of the two...This video goes from how bad it was when it was just Socialism and the government did everything to what happened when they combined the two systems and Sweden started to out preform the rest of the world while still having free schools, healthcare, nursing homes, etc. for all of its citizens...including a healthcare system that is more inline with 'Obamacare' or Canada's system than our current one or Bernie's wipe out all private insurance nonsense. 

Again...support whatever parts of the video you choose but what the 'Globalist' guy is arguing is that it is better now...in fact Sweden started to outperform the world once they evolved to a system closer to the way Canada and the old 'Obamacare' was theorized than before...not what Bernie seems to be pushing...and that a combination of socialism and capitalism seems to be the best combination of things...booming economy and quality education, healthcare and long term care all being provided for its citizens...even though I still agree with CC here that it would be much harder to implement that system in the US than in Sweden because of a number of factors including size and population make up...but again...at no point does this guy argue our way is the best way and his actual economic views are in direct contrast with our current President's...there is a lot to unpack but it seems some didn't get there yet.

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1 hour ago, carolina_corpsman said:

The biggest issue I see is that people keep pointing to small, wealthy, homogeneous countries as examples of why plan X or Y will work, but it igores the reality that the U.S. is a vastly different animal.

So .... socialized health insurance won't work because not everyone/most is white? :shrug:

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1 hour ago, LBC said:

This I actually agree with...that being said...I do find this idea that any part this video 'proves' socialism is bad a bit odd...first...the man who produced this video...and written several books and articles on the subject...is a super 'Globalist'...something our current President is wholly against. Giving speeches to places like the UN denouncing the very idea of it...meaning the Trump supporting Republicans here don't like any part of this guys actual economic philosophy even if they don't like Sweden's old system either...on top of that...the video seems to argue that the combination of socialism and capitalism is in fact the best system in the world...a balance of the two...This video goes from how bad it was when it was just Socialism and the government did everything to what happened when they combined the two systems and Sweden started to out preform the rest of the world while still having free schools, healthcare, nursing homes, etc. for all of its citizens...including a healthcare system that is more inline with 'Obamacare' or Canada's system than our current one or Bernie's wipe out all private insurance nonsense. 

Again...support whatever parts of the video you choose but what the 'Globalist' guy is arguing is that it is better now...in fact Sweden started to outperform the world once they evolved to a system closer to the way Canada and the old 'Obamacare' was theorized than before...not what Bernie seems to be pushing...and that a combination of socialism and capitalism seems to be the best combination of things...booming economy and quality education, healthcare and long term care all being provided for its citizens...even though I still agree with CC here that it would be much harder to implement that system in the US than in Sweden because of a number of factors including size and population make up...but again...at no point does this guy argue our way is the best way and his actual economic views are in direct contrast with our current President's...there is a lot to unpack but it seems some didn't get there yet.

1) You can't have a mix of capitalism and socialism.  The two are at odds.  Government spending isn't "socialism".  Even if cherrypicked gov't programs did qualify as socialism, there's no gov't program that performs well enough to be a beacon of hope for socialists, at least not in the US.  

2) Because this guy is a self-proclaimed "globalist" and trump isn't doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.  It's weird you brought it up. Besides that, a smaller country such as Sweden would find it essential to be more globalist in nature than a huge country like the US. I'd say that's why Sweden joined the EU.  

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5 minutes ago, TheKOB said:

Shared culture, values, etc. 

Usually people who view everything through the lens of race are racists....

No, I doubt that. Though I certainly don't view everything through the lens of race, in the first place. And he gave a different answer than you, though it makes just as little sense in explaining why single payer wouldn't work in the US.

 

"Diversity in health care outcomes" is not a serious objection. For one thing, universal coverage would enable a lot of preventative checkups, and/or keeping treatable problems from getting out of hand.

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4 minutes ago, GoldenSpur7 said:

No, I doubt that. Though I certainly don't view everything through the lens of race, in the first place. And he gave a different answer than you, though it makes just as little sense in explaining why single payer wouldn't work in the US.

 

"Diversity in health care outcomes" is not a serious objection. For one thing, universal coverage would enable a lot of preventative checkups, and/or keeping treatable problems from getting out of hand.

Thinking that a huge multicultural country functions the same as a small singular cultural country isn't just not getting bogged down in the details, it's sticking your head in the sand.  Saying that culture has no relevance to healthcare is insane.  Remember that little thing called abortion?  Remember Obama suing nuns?  

It all sounds great in theory.  Just like Obamacare did.  Of course, then government happened.

What in the history of government programs would indicate that this would be a good thing?  Obamacare had trouble rolling out a website.  We were told it would fix everything.  It made things worse....costs increased, not decreased.  People's premiums blew up overnight.  In what world should the reaction to such failure be to let people who are further out on the extreme wing of a political party try to do it their way???

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4 minutes ago, TheKOB said:

It all sounds great in theory.  Just like Obamacare did.  Of course, then government happened.

What in the history of government programs would indicate that this would be a good thing?  Obamacare had trouble rolling out a website.  We were told it would fix everything.  It made things worse....costs increased, not decreased.  People's premiums blew up overnight.  In what world should the reaction to such failure be to let people who are further out on the extreme wing of a political party try to do it their way???

Obamacare is not single-payer. And again, HC costs are lower per capita in every country that has socialized health insurance than the US. The UK is less than half. So those would be examples.

 

Though if you feel so passionately that government can't do HC right, maybe you should give up your government-funded HC plan. Just a suggestion. :shrug:

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3 minutes ago, GoldenSpur7 said:

Obamacare is not single-payer. And again, HC costs are lower per capita in every country that has socialized health insurance than the US. The UK is less than half. So those would be examples.

 

Though if you feel so passionately that government can't do HC right, maybe you should give up your government-funded HC plan. Just a suggestion. :shrug:

LOL.  So yall screwed it up more, and now yall want to try again with an even more extreme change?

So you're willing to get shitty healthcare for less money?  Gee, sounds like capitalism works.  One should remove the barrier known as Obamacare so you can get your shitty healthcare for cheap.

Maybe this is just me, but I don't mind paying more for important things, like healthcare.  Of course, sometimes things like Obamacare come along and make you pay more for something worse....

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5 minutes ago, TheKOB said:

(a) LOL.  So yall screwed it up more, and now yall want to try again with an even more extreme change?

(b) So you're willing to get shitty healthcare for less money?  Gee, sounds like capitalism works.  One should remove the barrier known as Obamacare so you can get your shitty healthcare for cheap.

(c) Maybe this is just me, but I don't mind paying more for important things, like healthcare.  Of course, sometimes things like Obamacare come along and make you pay more for something worse....

(a) I was never a fan of ACA, because it allowed the Health Insurance companies to continue gouging people. It was no solution, single payer is, has worked well in other countries.

(b) Those countries also outrank the US in HC quality in every study I've ever seen. You have faulty assumptions, which often lead to faulty conclusions. 

(c) So you don't have government-funded health care?

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16 minutes ago, TheKOB said:

Thinking that a huge multicultural country functions the same as a small singular cultural country isn't just not getting bogged down in the details, it's sticking your head in the sand.  Saying that culture has no relevance to healthcare is insane.  Remember that little thing called abortion?  Remember Obama suing nuns?  

It all sounds great in theory.  Just like Obamacare did.  Of course, then government happened.

What in the history of government programs would indicate that this would be a good thing?  Obamacare had trouble rolling out a website.  We were told it would fix everything.  It made things worse....costs increased, not decreased.  People's premiums blew up overnight.  In what world should the reaction to such failure be to let people who are further out on the extreme wing of a political party try to do it their way???

Canada is a huge multicultural country

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40 minutes ago, GoldenSpur7 said:

No, I doubt that. Though I certainly don't view everything through the lens of race, in the first place. And he gave a different answer than you, though it makes just as little sense in explaining why single payer wouldn't work in the US.

 

"Diversity in health care outcomes" is not a serious objection. For one thing, universal coverage would enable a lot of preventative checkups, and/or keeping treatable problems from getting out of hand.

You are missing something, the value of healthcare to people. Just because its free doesn't mean people will use it. It also doesn't ensure that people will all of a sudden start eating well, stop smoking, exercise 4 days a week etc.

Many of the small Nordic countries have different social attitudes towards both food and health. I would venture to guess they have lower rates of risky behavior as well. 

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8 hours ago, TheKOB said:

1) You can't have a mix of capitalism and socialism.  The two are at odds.  Government spending isn't "socialism".  Even if cherrypicked gov't programs did qualify as socialism, there's no gov't program that performs well enough to be a beacon of hope for socialists, at least not in the US.  

2) Because this guy is a self-proclaimed "globalist" and trump isn't doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand.  It's weird you brought it up. Besides that, a smaller country such as Sweden would find it essential to be more globalist in nature than a huge country like the US. I'd say that's why Sweden joined the EU.  

Of course you can have a mixed economy and political system that has some aspects/hallmarks of both socialism and capitalism.

I do agree, however, that things like universal healthcare do not make one a 'socialist country' by themselves or that places like Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, etc. are even socialist countries. Canada isn't one either...neither are most of the other countries who provide universal healthcare, education, long term nursing care, etc. for their citizens. 

It seems that confusion stems more from people in this country than those who may already be using some combination of what they have found to be the best balance of models for themselves and their citizens.  

 

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I think Germany is probably the best model for us. they have a universal multi-payer healthcare system that works. They have progressed a lot since the good ole days of blitzKREIGing and stuff.

Maybe we could research what they are doing a little and try to copy it or something 

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2 minutes ago, Tastylicks said:

I think Germany is probably the best model for us. they have a universal multi-payer healthcare system that works. They have progressed a lot since the good ole days of blitzKREIGing and stuff.

Maybe we could research what they are doing a little and try to copy it or something 

You are referring to the Bismarck Model of healthcare, its been around since the late 1800's.

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