The Battle of Gettysburg

[dreammachine 25]

I guess that this is one of the most talk about battles of the War Between The States.  Some call it the "high-water-mark-" of the Confederate Nation.  There are a lot of books out there about this one battle and many have to do with "--un-coordinated attacks by Gen Lee and his Corp Commanders"  There has been a lot written about Lt. General James Longstreet's suggestion to General Lee "to not attack the Union Army where it was located on the high ground", but to pull back and get in between the Union Army under Major General George Meade and Washington City, as it was called back then.  Lt. General Longstreet wanted to fight what he called an "defensive/offensive battle" where the Confederate Army would gain the high ground to their liking and force the Union Army to attack them since they were always out-numbered and had lesser quality armament (cannons) to fight back with.  Many a student of this time period agrees with Lt. General Longstreet and believe that if General Lee would have listened to this one suggestion and did as Lt Gen Longstreet suggested - the Southern Army would have crushed the advance of the Union Army in "wave after wave"???  Since this did not happen and Gen Lee stated "firmly that those people are up there and that is where we will fight them"!  Many people think that Lt. Gen Longstreet pouted about this decision that was made by the Commanding General (Lee) and was slow to get his troops into battle lines as what were the directions of General Lee for this battle as so much depended on coordination between fellow Corps attacking as directed on each side of their lines - be it in the middle or on both flanks.

My personal thought on this and this has taken me a lot of reading and studying for the last twenty years or so, I think I do see where Lt. General Longstreet may have been correct in his thinking and if the plan would have been adopted by General Lee and the Confederate Army would have gotten on high ground in between the Union Army and Washington City and forced Major General Meade to attack this strong position, they would have broken the Union Army like they did at the Battle of Fredricksburg, VA. 

This action might have forced the Union Govt into some kind of "Peace Accord" as the main Union Army (Potomac) would have been badly beaten and Washington City invested by the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia as it was so called.  I also think that if this would have happened and the South had won her independence that the South and North would have reunited by the time the Spanish/American War broke out in 1898 as there was just too much common good for both sides to stay together and both sides needed the other to continue to grow and prosper.

What say you?

[Spur's Addiction 348]

Haven’t studied the specifics of the battle strategy. But I did visit the Gettysburg battlefield a number of years ago and it was very moving. The size of the battlefield is something that’s hard to comprehend without seeing it in person. Truly amazing yet very somber at the same time.

This is a must visit for everyone.

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

My great great grandfather was captured sent up north to a prison camp in Ohio and died their in prison towards the last days of the war. Left behind wife and 6 kids. Died st Camp Chase

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

 

Picture of the farm

 

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

one more

[Guest Senior Rooster]

It is really great to know YOUR history!

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

 I was able to go back to mid 1600’s to a Captain William Moberley. Below is his story. Notice he came to America on a William Penn boat. William Penn is the man that founded Philadelphia and the state of Pennsylvania. So evidently moms family in America started out as Yankees in the Philadelphia and Maryland area. 

On one occasion the father, Edward Moberley, was about to go on a trip to London with one of his dependents, Adam Varnadore. He called his son William to superintend the planting of some apple trees in his absence in a certain field during his stay in London. The son objected to the spot in which he was directed to plant the trees, saying the site selected did not suit-him, and that the trees should be planted elsewhere. The father insisted and enjoined that the trees be put out as he directed while away. With that the elder Moberley and the elder Varnadore went on to London. Adam Varnadore had a son Adam, the companion of young William Moberley. Edward Moberley, the father, and Adam Varnadore, the father, returned from London to find the trees set out against the wishes of Mr. Moberley. In concert both fathers pulled up a sion of the trees with which each whipped his own son soundly. The boys enraged under the lash ran away together. They got into a ship belonging to William Penn, the founder of the colony of Pennsylvania. On board Penn's ship was a beautiful girl, Phoebe Lovejoy, a governess of Penn's household. She was a girl of good family, educated and refined. Phoebe Lovejoy was a Quakeress, and to her must be ascribed the oft repeated statement, that the Mobleys have Quaker blood in their veins. In talks around the family fireside, down from one generation to another, Phoebe is said to have been a relative of Penn or his wife, and that she was as accomplished as she was fair and beautiful, that she was as good as she was lovely. She and William Moberley loved in secret, and upon reaching America were married without the knowledge of Penn, the Proprietor of the province of Pennsylvania, and of course all-powerful. Fearing his displeasure, not to speak of his anger against young Moberley, they fled to the Indians and concealed themselves among them. This is not strange for the Indians lived toward Penn and his people in the spirit of their chief's address to the colonists, "we will live in love with Penn and his children as long as the moon and the sun shall shine. That promise was never broken.

When William Moberley landed in Pennsylvania he was 18 years old. After the marriage and uncertain life for two years he moved to a point in Maryland, near what was called a few years ago, Point Tobacco. He and his wife settled down in that State and raised eight sons. How many daughters we cannot find out. We cannot ascertain whether there were any daughters at all. When the youngest son was a boy of 6 years and after the death of his wife whom he deeply mourned, William Moberley, stricken with loneliness and sorrow, craved the sight of his father, the old home, and native land. He returned to England, sad of heart and much changed in physical appearance. He had left a beardless youth, he returned a bronzed, hardened pioneer of the New World. So great was the transformation of physique, of manner and expression, that his father not only did not know him but pronounced him an impostor. The matter of his identity the father could not for the moment be brought to believe. He had sought him over a third of a century and as one whom his enfeebled eyes would never behold again. William Moberley with the tales of his childhood, of how he had incurred his father's displeasure, about the apple tree scions, his flogging, his running away with young Adam Varnadore, and at once going to the window and pointing out the orchard and the very spot he was whipped, convinced his father that he, indeed, was his long absent boy: Whereupon it may be imagined a scene of affection and reconciliation. William Moberley remained but a short time in England and returned to Maryland, died there, and was the first of our Mobley ancestors whose body given to him in the Old World returned to its mother Earth in the New.

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

I have all kinds of civil war mementos from my Great great Grand father his uniform his sword and much much more. Lots of very old photos and letters. I have my Great great great grand fathers Razor he shaved with. Beautiful piece of art the handle is made out of ivory. Also Great great grand father too. another made out of ivory also Great grandfather and my Grandfather too.  When I hold them in my hand I feel like I am there with them watching them shave.  All are straight razors how they used them with out cutting themselves is amazing. One of them is over 250 years old. 

[dreammachine 25]

9 hours ago, FeatheredCock said:

My great great grandfather was captured sent up north to a prison camp in Ohio and died their in prison towards the last days of the war. Left behind wife and 6 kids. Died st Camp Chase

May GOD Bless your Great-Great-Grandfather as so many soldiers and sailors dies in prison camps.  Everyone talks about the conditions at Andersonville (Sumter) Prison, but more Confederate Soldiers died in Northern Prisons that Union Soldiers died in Southern Prisons, especially after Abraham Lincoln and General Grant stop the "soldier exchanges".  This was especially tough on Union Prisoners as the South did not have enough food to feed their own troops - much less Union Soldiers.  My Great-Great- Grandfather was a 15 year old Prison Guard at the Florence Stockade in Florence, SC.  I think his father - who had to be at least in his 60's was also a Prison Guard there too as the South was down to using young kids and very old men by this time.

[dreammachine 25]

3 hours ago, FeatheredCock said:

 I was able to go back to mid 1600’s to a Captain William Moberley. Below is his story. Notice he came to America on a William Penn boat. William Penn is the man that founded Philadelphia and the state of Pennsylvania. So evidently moms family in America started out as Yankees in the Philadelphia and Maryland area. 

On one occasion the father, Edward Moberley, was about to go on a trip to London with one of his dependents, Adam Varnadore. He called his son William to superintend the planting of some apple trees in his absence in a certain field during his stay in London. The son objected to the spot in which he was directed to plant the trees, saying the site selected did not suit-him, and that the trees should be planted elsewhere. The father insisted and enjoined that the trees be put out as he directed while away. With that the elder Moberley and the elder Varnadore went on to London. Adam Varnadore had a son Adam, the companion of young William Moberley. Edward Moberley, the father, and Adam Varnadore, the father, returned from London to find the trees set out against the wishes of Mr. Moberley. In concert both fathers pulled up a sion of the trees with which each whipped his own son soundly. The boys enraged under the lash ran away together. They got into a ship belonging to William Penn, the founder of the colony of Pennsylvania. On board Penn's ship was a beautiful girl, Phoebe Lovejoy, a governess of Penn's household. She was a girl of good family, educated and refined. Phoebe Lovejoy was a Quakeress, and to her must be ascribed the oft repeated statement, that the Mobleys have Quaker blood in their veins. In talks around the family fireside, down from one generation to another, Phoebe is said to have been a relative of Penn or his wife, and that she was as accomplished as she was fair and beautiful, that she was as good as she was lovely. She and William Moberley loved in secret, and upon reaching America were married without the knowledge of Penn, the Proprietor of the province of Pennsylvania, and of course all-powerful. Fearing his displeasure, not to speak of his anger against young Moberley, they fled to the Indians and concealed themselves among them. This is not strange for the Indians lived toward Penn and his people in the spirit of their chief's address to the colonists, "we will live in love with Penn and his children as long as the moon and the sun shall shine. That promise was never broken.

When William Moberley landed in Pennsylvania he was 18 years old. After the marriage and uncertain life for two years he moved to a point in Maryland, near what was called a few years ago, Point Tobacco. He and his wife settled down in that State and raised eight sons. How many daughters we cannot find out. We cannot ascertain whether there were any daughters at all. When the youngest son was a boy of 6 years and after the death of his wife whom he deeply mourned, William Moberley, stricken with loneliness and sorrow, craved the sight of his father, the old home, and native land. He returned to England, sad of heart and much changed in physical appearance. He had left a beardless youth, he returned a bronzed, hardened pioneer of the New World. So great was the transformation of physique, of manner and expression, that his father not only did not know him but pronounced him an impostor. The matter of his identity the father could not for the moment be brought to believe. He had sought him over a third of a century and as one whom his enfeebled eyes would never behold again. William Moberley with the tales of his childhood, of how he had incurred his father's displeasure, about the apple tree scions, his flogging, his running away with young Adam Varnadore, and at once going to the window and pointing out the orchard and the very spot he was whipped, convinced his father that he, indeed, was his long absent boy: Whereupon it may be imagined a scene of affection and reconciliation. William Moberley remained but a short time in England and returned to Maryland, died there, and was the first of our Mobley ancestors whose body given to him in the Old World returned to its mother Earth in the New.

Great story about your family tree and your ancestors.  I love hearing and reading about this type of stuff.  More families need to do it as it is a lot easier now than when I first started back in the late 1990's.  I think I have walked over and through every cemetery - from York County - down to the Charleston Coastline and back towards the Georgia State Line. 

[dreammachine 25]

19 hours ago, Spur's Addiction said:

Haven’t studied the specifics of the battle strategy. But I did visit the Gettysburg battlefield a number of years ago and it was very moving. The size of the battlefield is something that’s hard to comprehend without seeing it in person. Truly amazing yet very somber at the same time.

This is a must visit for everyone.
 

S-A, I have only been there one time and that was coming back from a business meeting Philadelphia and it was so very cold that day and I talked my two friends who were traveling with me to go by there, but they would not get out of the car due to the weather (it was really cold that day) - so I just stated that I would come back another day.  If you ever do get time to study the strategy of General Lee and then look at "just how close he came to winning this battle" it is amazing - considering all the delays and miscommunications between General Lee's HQ and his Corp Commanders.  It has been said only once by General Lee "when he was President of Washington College in Lexington, VA (after the war) - while riding with a professor at the college one evening, General Lee stated that if he had only Lt. Gen Stonewall Jackson with him - he would have won the battle of Gettysburg".  I think the Battle of Gettysburg was like the Battle of Fredricksburg, VA - where the Confederates had the high ground and the Union had to charge up hill and the Confederates were behind stone walls and had breastworks in other places.  The Union Army had about the same thing at Gettysburg due to the rocky layout of the high ground that they occupied first.  Higher ground - shorter reinforcement lines - and could pretty much see what and where the Confederates were going to attack next.  Great planning by General George Meade in his first battle.

It is is very interesting to think that if General Lee would have accepted Lt. Gen Longstreet proposal to "get around the Union Army and find the high ground that suited them best and make the Union Army attack - it may well have been another Fredricksburg Battle all over again"???  Great conversational piece for people that like to sit around and discuss these battles.  They usually have a "Civil War Round Table Meeting" in just about every city that has a college/university in it.  They keep it "low key and don't allow for people to just come in and express just one-sided opinions".  This most likely keeps the arguments from flaring up???

[dreammachine 25]

9 hours ago, FeatheredCock said:

My great great grandfather was captured sent up north to a prison camp in Ohio and died their in prison towards the last days of the war. Left behind wife and 6 kids. Died st Camp Chase

I have ordered and put out about 18 to 20 of these Confederate Headstones.  I use to go and tell the United Daughters of the Confederacy about where I put them and they would ensure that each soldier got a "Proper Military Funeral" with re-enactors and firing of the rifles for these brave men".  About 5 or 6 were for my family or close family members, but the others were for Confederate Soldiers that I found while I would be walking through Old Southern Cemeteries looking for my ancestors.  After finding a name that I thought would be a soldier, I would go the library as they had a two or three volume set of names of every soldier/sailor that served in the Confederate Army or Navy and once verified - I would then go to the nearest Veterans Administration Office and get the proper form and fill it out and in about 5 or 6 weeks I would get a call from a trucking terminal that my "Confederate Headstone" had come in.  Those thing were heavy and that's why I usually ordered them as flat ones as I would be by myself a lot and trying to properly lay one of them on a grave by yourself is a full days work.  I really enjoyed every minute of it and was proud to hopefully know that these great soldiers would not be forgotten.

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

Years ago I wanted to bring pop back to be buried next to his wife. But with his sickness along with mostly likely put in Wooding box would by this time be nothing to bring home. 

[FurmanCock 186]

9 hours ago, dreammachine said:

I have ordered and put out about 18 to 20 of these Confederate Headstones.  I use to go and tell the United Daughters of the Confederacy about where I put them and they would ensure that each soldier got a "Proper Military Funeral" with re-enactors and firing of the rifles for these brave men".  About 5 or 6 were for my family or close family members, but the others were for Confederate Soldiers that I found while I would be walking through Old Southern Cemeteries looking for my ancestors.  After finding a name that I thought would be a soldier, I would go the library as they had a two or three volume set of names of every soldier/sailor that served in the Confederate Army or Navy and once verified - I would then go to the nearest Veterans Administration Office and get the proper form and fill it out and in about 5 or 6 weeks I would get a call from a trucking terminal that my "Confederate Headstone" had come in.  Those thing were heavy and that's why I usually ordered them as flat ones as I would be by myself a lot and trying to properly lay one of them on a grave by yourself is a full days work.  I really enjoyed every minute of it and was proud to hopefully know that these great soldiers would not be forgotten.

Dreammachine, I am impressed, sir.  History should be cherished and sacrifices honored...so well played.

[dreammachine 25]

There are still many Confederate Veterans that need a proper burial/headstone.  This is a time-consuming venture and I did a lot of this after my first wife passed away as it gave me a sense of purpose and I always felt like the Confederate Veterans would have been proud of me.  Getting the "Ladies of the UDC" was also an honor as these ladies do so much for the memory and maintaining our Southern History and Heritage.  The Honor Guard that was supplied by Confederate Re-Enactors was also an awesome sight that really put the finishing touches on these ceremonies.  Sadly, I got some flak from some the "P.C. Crowd" that were members in the SCV at the time, but mostly just wanted to warn everyone to "not muddy the waters and offend anyone", so sadly I back off doing it for a long time.  A lot of my contacts with the U.D.C. have also retired and dropped out and these ladies would usely take the ball and run with it when I informed them that I had put down another Confederate Headstone.

[Guest Senior Rooster]

On 9/24/2019 at 10:38 AM, FurmanCock said:

Dreammachine, I am impressed, sir.  History should be cherished and sacrifices honored...so well played.

As am I - very impressed.

[FurmanCock 186]

4 hours ago, dreammachine said:

There are still many Confederate Veterans that need a proper burial/headstone.  This is a time-consuming venture and I did a lot of this after my first wife passed away as it gave me a sense of purpose and I always felt like the Confederate Veterans would have been proud of me.  Getting the "Ladies of the UDC" was also an honor as these ladies do so much for the memory and maintaining our Southern History and Heritage.  The Honor Guard that was supplied by Confederate Re-Enactors was also an awesome sight that really put the finishing touches on these ceremonies.  Sadly, I got some flak from some the "P.C. Crowd" that were members in the SCV at the time, but mostly just wanted to warn everyone to "not muddy the waters and offend anyone", so sadly I back off doing it for a long time.  A lot of my contacts with the U.D.C. have also retired and dropped out and these ladies would usely take the ball and run with it when I informed them that I had put down another Confederate Headstone.

Unfortunately, I suspect this type of activity will soon be a thing of the past as today's youth are so invested in the "cancel culture" mentality.

[dreammachine 25]

19 hours ago, FurmanCock said:

Unfortunately, I suspect this type of activity will soon be a thing of the past as today's youth are so invested in the "cancel culture" mentality.

Yes, you are exactly right.  I was amazed at finding the "Southern Cross Of Honor" on a lot of these old Confederate Veterans old headstones.  This was an "Black Iron Cross" that was placed on or beside the headstone to indicate that this was a Confederate Soldier/Veteran.  This "Black Iron Crosses" were put there by the U.D.C. and some of the "Local Ladies Auxiliary Clubs" back in the 1890's to 1900's.  Sadly, many of these "Beautiful Black Iron Crosses" have been stolen and sold at scrap yards over the years.  Replicas can be purchased, but I think it is a State/Federal Crime if someone removes one now from a grave site.

Southerns are our own worst enemy when it comes to protecting our history and heritage.  The Sons Of Confederate Veterans use to be a leader in doing this, but like everything else they all became so worried about being "P.C." that it disgusted the many members who would get off their "blessed assurances and actually go out and speak out for our history/heritage - find Confederate Veterans Grave Sites - clean up cemeteries where Confederate Soldiers were buried.  Now days, they mostly want "to meet - greet - eat and retreat back home" without committing to any good ideas or goals.  They also, as do the ladies of the U.D.C. - all need a heavy influx of younger and more dedicated blood and I just don't see it happening anymore.  Sad to say this, but it is true.

[GregoryHouse 45]

On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 12:56 AM, dreammachine said:

I guess that this is one of the most talk about battles of the War Between The States.  Some call it the "high-water-mark-" of the Confederate Nation.  There are a lot of books out there about this one battle and many have to do with "--un-coordinated attacks by Gen Lee and his Corp Commanders"  There has been a lot written about Lt. General James Longstreet's suggestion to General Lee "to not attack the Union Army where it was located on the high ground", but to pull back and get in between the Union Army under Major General George Meade and Washington City, as it was called back then.  Lt. General Longstreet wanted to fight what he called an "defensive/offensive battle" where the Confederate Army would gain the high ground to their liking and force the Union Army to attack them since they were always out-numbered and had lesser quality armament (cannons) to fight back with.  Many a student of this time period agrees with Lt. General Longstreet and believe that if General Lee would have listened to this one suggestion and did as Lt Gen Longstreet suggested - the Southern Army would have crushed the advance of the Union Army in "wave after wave"???  Since this did not happen and Gen Lee stated "firmly that those people are up there and that is where we will fight them"!  Many people think that Lt. Gen Longstreet pouted about this decision that was made by the Commanding General (Lee) and was slow to get his troops into battle lines as what were the directions of General Lee for this battle as so much depended on coordination between fellow Corps attacking as directed on each side of their lines - be it in the middle or on both flanks.

My personal thought on this and this has taken me a lot of reading and studying for the last twenty years or so, I think I do see where Lt. General Longstreet may have been correct in his thinking and if the plan would have been adopted by General Lee and the Confederate Army would have gotten on high ground in between the Union Army and Washington City and forced Major General Meade to attack this strong position, they would have broken the Union Army like they did at the Battle of Fredricksburg, VA. 

This action might have forced the Union Govt into some kind of "Peace Accord" as the main Union Army (Potomac) would have been badly beaten and Washington City invested by the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia as it was so called.  I also think that if this would have happened and the South had won her independence that the South and North would have reunited by the time the Spanish/American War broke out in 1898 as there was just too much common good for both sides to stay together and both sides needed the other to continue to grow and prosper.

What say you?

Would that have delayed the end of slavery?

[FeatheredCock 1,445]

Years later Great great grand mom received around 4.00 month from the government for granddaddy service in the Civil war.  Another thing most who fought and lost there lives did not own slaves. They where called to arms to fight for the south independents. War was not fought just for slavery. 

[Guest Senior Rooster]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:16 AM, GregoryHouse said:

Would that have delayed the end of slavery?

That would have delayed it - Yes. I believe it would be not for long as the British and others had begun to ban slavery. The public sentiment was against it. I think the North would have finally won out anyway. I am glad they did, though a SC born and raised. I just do not like the attempt to stain the honor of the individual confederate soldier.  That soldier was by far a poor share cropper / tenant farmer who never dreamed of owning a slave. The powers of the State called him to arms and he came.

[dreammachine 25]

On 9/27/2019 at 6:16 AM, GregoryHouse said:

Would that have delayed the end of slavery?

If the South would have won their independence at the end of the War Between The States, I firmly believe from having been a student of that time period for many a year that the South and North would have come back together for a massive - variety - of - reasons - but the most being that the invention of mechanical machinery would have greatly decreased the need for manual labor in the fields.  As another poster stated that "Not All Southerners Owned Slaves" which is a correct statement as only 6% of the soldiers that fought for the South actually owned slaves.  That meant that 94% of the Southern Soldiers fought for their Independence from the Oppressive Northern Dominated Government at the time.  What is sadly forgotten in the quick claim to "paint all Southern Soldiers as slave owning war mongers" is the FACT THAT NO SLAVE SHIP EVER SAILED WITH A CONFEDERATE FLAG OVER IT'S MASK.  There are still to this day - many New England Wealthy Families that can trace their financial fortunes back to the days of the slave trade and "yet nothing is ever said about this"????  Abraham Lincoln - the "so-called abolitionist" - had a wife whose family owned slaves and several of Mary Lincoln's brothers fought for the South????  General U.S. Grant even owned a slave and ask "why he had not freed the man after the War Between The States Had Ended - General Grant stated that good help was hard to find"????  General Grant - Abe Lincoln - William T. Sherman also did not think that the black man was the white man's equal before the war and after the war had ended.  They simply fought to preserve what they thought was the preservation of the Union - and not to allow the South to legally succeed from the Union - the same thing that the New England States voted for and approve during the War of 1812 - except General Andrew Jackson happen to win a battle at New Orleans and by the time it reached New England, they quickly decided to change their minds.   I say all of this to state this;  "If succession was illegal - then why was Jefferson Davis - Robert E. Lee - James Breckenridge (Former Vice-President of the USA) - Alexander Stephens & many others were never brought to trial and had charges brought against them???  The reason why it was not brought to trial was because the Constitution of USA did not say it was illegal to succeed from the Union.  The original 13 colonies signed separate  peace treaties with Great Britain and all freely joined the confederacy of states to form the United States of America - a place where the power was retained within each state and not the federal government  They freely joined and felt as they could just as easily succeed when they wanted too.  Sadly the nation almost split apart in 1850 and if it had done it then, the South would have most likely won it's independence from the North - as the North had not yet made the great leap forward in the industrial revolution that it made from 1850 to 1860.   Was slavery an issue at the time of the War Between The States, yes it was, but there was also a lot more at stake than this.  The GNP of the USA in 1860 was mostly made in the South due to it's more agriculturally lifestyle and President Lincoln and his important cabinet members could not easily allow the South to go in peace and give up that much money!!!    Slavery after first being tried in the North to see if it was a profitable venture for the Northern Farmers prove to be a bust due to the cold climate and the smaller farms.  Once Eli Whitney invented the Cotton Gin to separate the seed from the cotton ball, then it became a lucrative venture to have larger plantation and the Northern Flesh Dealers with their Slave Ships were more than eager to supply the Southern Ports with all the slaves that they could capture (along with help from their African Brothers) to bring to South America and America to turn a huge profit.  It is also lost in the "Northern History Books" that over 93,000 Black soldiers fought for the South in many capacities.  Some were cooks, some were teamsters, but many put rifle in hand to protect their homeland and fellow Southern White Brother.  You will never find this in any history book that has been written in the South since before 1930.  It's the gospel truth, but the victor (North) always has a way to spin or write their version of the truth to justify why they went to war.   The South lost the war due to the industrial might and numerical numbers of the North - as they had immigrants getting off ships everyday to join the Union Army and gain instant citizenship if they went and fought for the North.  All the Southern Ports were closed due to the Union Blockade and the South had to make due with it's smaller population and still came very close winning it's independence.  MIGHT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ONE NATION IS RIGHT - IT ONLY MEANS THAT THIS NATION HAS MORE RESOURCES!!!

 

When "Honest Abe" issued his Emancipation Proclamation" - which he had no legal rights in the Confederate States of America as they were a free and independent nation and then "Ole Honest Abe" only freed the slaves in East Tenn, and the Southern States that were still in the state of rebellion per his mindset.  Honest Abe did not free the slaves in the states of Mo, Southern Indiana, Maryland, Kentucky, Delftware, and of all places Washington, D.C.????  Ole Honest Abe did not want to piss off any loyal voters in these states that still owned slaves (which included several of his high ranking Yankee Generals)????

 

My last statement on this would be this question:  "If The South Was So Wrong For Having Slaves - Then Why Did Slavery Exist Under The United States Flag For Over 80 plus years - before the War Between The States broke out"????  The Southern Confederacy Was Only In Existence For 4 Years???

[Spur's Addiction 348]

Would that have delayed the end of slavery?

I would say almost certainly.

[Cockyandproud 225]

I didn't read through all of these posts, because I don't have time at the moment, but I will later.  

I will say that I took my son to Gettysburg last year, and it was a sobering place.  As I stood on the battlefield where Pickett's charge took place, I almost wept as I looked at the distance the Confederate soldiers traversed, mostly in wide, open conditions, for 2 miles, knowing they were most likely headed to their deaths, but they had the courage, and testicular fortitude to do it anyway, and I was humbled, and marveled at them.  That kind of bravery is extremely rare these days, if even existent at all.  I also was amazed standing at Little Round Top, and imagining the horrible suffering that happened there.

[CockyCody 24]

On 9/24/2019 at 10:38 AM, FurmanCock said:

Dreammachine, I am impressed, sir.  History should be cherished and sacrifices honored...so well played.

This goes for me too, Dream!!!!

[dreammachine 25]

8 hours ago, Cockyandproud said:

I didn't read through all of these posts, because I don't have time at the moment, but I will later.  

I will say that I took my son to Gettysburg last year, and it was a sobering place.  As I stood on the battlefield where Pickett's charge took place, I almost wept as I looked at the distance the Confederate soldiers traversed, mostly in wide, open conditions, for 2 miles, knowing they were most likely headed to their deaths, but they had the courage, and testicular fortitude to do it anyway, and I was humbled, and marveled at them.  That kind of bravery is extremely rare these days, if even existent at all.  I also was amazed standing at Little Round Top, and imagining the horrible suffering that happened there.

As much as General Robert E. Lee is "Revered and Placed On The Top Of The Mantel In Most Southern Homes - Including Mine" - this is one time he should have listened to his "Old Warhorse Lt. Gen James Longstreet".  There was a lot of pressure on Gen Lee to relieve the siege at Vicksburg, MS and he thought a great victory on Union soil would speedily bring about such a  reverse out in the West (which is where the South really lost the war) and make the Union Armies send more troops back east.  Sadly, this battle was fought as badly as a battle could be fought - per the general orders of General Lee.  Breakdowns in communications, misinterpretation and as bad as I hate to say - I think Lt. General Longstreet pouted with General Lee due to their concepts of how the battle should have been fought and was very slow in putting his troops in battle formations.  I still think that this is one of the few times that Lt. Gen Longstreet was right, but GOD only knows why General Lee would not change his mind.  After the battle - General Lee took all the blame, which even after the battle - the outcome  was still so close that Union Major General George Meade would not leave his high ground and attack the Confederates after three days of punishing them hard in their ranks.  I think that this was because the Confederate Army put almost as good a licking' on the Union Army as they got themselves.  HIGH WATER MARK OF THE CONFEDERACY!

[Longhaul 362]

Longstreet defensive tactics were ahead of their time.  

[dreammachine 25]

14 hours ago, Longhaul said:

Longstreet defensive tactics were ahead of their time.  

Yes he was most definitely a "hard hitter" once he committed his troops for battle.  He was a superb planner and always tried to make sure that his men would not be sacrificed without a justifiable meaning.  I think this is what upset him a lot at the Battle of Gettysburg as he thought that General Lee was of the same mindset as he was and for whatever reasons - General Lee would not move or budge from his original battle plan.

I also think that Lt. Gen Longstreet was also at his best as a Corp Commander versus independent command.  The few times he was placed in independent command things did not turn out as Lt. Gen Longstreet had hoped for.  I think this was due to his always being short on enough troops to bring on the desired result required by the Confederate Govt back in Richmond.  Being out-numbered was a thing that every Commanding Confederate Army General had to face and endure and the Confederate Govt did not want to hear excuses about not having enough men to fight when they had no more reserves to give to any of their main armies.

I think that the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia - led by General Robert E. Lee was at it's best when it had Lt. General James Longstreet in command of the 1st Corp - Lt. General Thomas (Stonewall) Jackson in command of the 2nd Corp.  These two great generals complemented each others style very well and I think that there was a tad bit of competition between them - albeit a very friendly one as these two men had great respect for each other.

[kingofnerf 307]

The Gettysburg Electric Map is the best military history lesson ever.  A total of 51,000 men from both sides died in three days and yet the nation survived it and must never sweep it under the rug.  Our freedom ain't ever been free.  Thousands of families on both sides had to figure out how to survive with out their sons and fathers long after the war was over and miraculously triumphed.  Never forget the lessons learned from the American Civil War.