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Beto O'Rourke just did Republicans a massive favor on guns

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1 hour ago, Spur's Addiction said:

And that really is the whole point of the extremist language.  You keep putting extremism out enough, and it becomes common language.   It's no longer extreme...it has become normalized.  That's how you shift the middle.  The whole socialism thing is a perfect example.  Ten years ago, a socialist label would have been the death knoll for an American politician.  Bernie Sanders has changed that -- he's attempted to normalize the concept and the language.
Go ultra extreme, and you can sell less extreme ideas as normal.  Ideas that would have previously been considered extreme until the ultra extremes are introduced.


Exact same thing happening on the right with Nazis / anti immigrant propaganda.

You mean like calling people racist and nazis for disagreeing with you? The left does that as well. 

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41 minutes ago, carolina_corpsman said:

Ok, they all support "assault weapons bans" I admit I should have been more descriptive. It is misguided and only serves to drum up far left support. 

glad to hear there are some sensible weapons bans you are in favor of. I guess I'm a kinetic person, in that I would prefer doing something even if it might not be the best thing over sitting still. I would love the GOP or gun access advocates to present an actionable alternative. Until then, I'm going to favor doing something over sitting on our hands in response to a mind numbing number of mass shootings. 

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glad to hear there are some sensible weapons bans you are in favor of. I guess I'm a kinetic person, in that I would prefer doing something even if it might not be the best thing over sitting still. I would love the GOP or gun access advocates to present an actionable alternative. Until then, I'm going to favor doing something over sitting on our hands in response to a mind numbing number of mass shootings. 

The only alternative the GOP offers are thoughts and prayers.

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27 minutes ago, Sporkgod50 said:

glad to hear there are some sensible weapons bans you are in favor of. I guess I'm a kinetic person, in that I would prefer doing something even if it might not be the best thing over sitting still. I would love the GOP or gun access advocates to present an actionable alternative. Until then, I'm going to favor doing something over sitting on our hands in response to a mind numbing number of mass shootings. 

I'm more of a pragmatic person, doing something just to feel like your doing something even if the payoff is minimal is a waste of time and effort. 

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37 minutes ago, Spur's Addiction said:

The only alternative the GOP offers are thoughts and prayers.

This is also a false statement so why even make it?

There are a number of GOP plans to address background checks which I agree should be expanded to private sales and red flag laws, which as they are now I disagree with. 

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/460819-conflicted-senate-gop-fears-clash-with-nra

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2 hours ago, carolina_corpsman said:

I'm more of a pragmatic person, doing something just to feel like your doing something even if the payoff is minimal is a waste of time and effort. 

I kinda see that as giving up and saying the greatest country in the world can't solve this problem and we might as well not try. 

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2 hours ago, carolina_corpsman said:

This is also a false statement so why even make it?

There are a number of GOP plans to address background checks which I agree should be expanded to private sales and red flag laws, which as they are now I disagree with. 

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/460819-conflicted-senate-gop-fears-clash-with-nra

But Moscow Mitch refuses to even hold a vote on anything. 

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8 hours ago, Sporkgod50 said:

I kinda see that as giving up and saying the greatest country in the world can't solve this problem and we might as well not try. 

I have never advocated for not trying, you know this. I have given a number of ideas that I feel would be more efficient and more constitutional than restricting or banning guns because they are scary lookings (let's be honest, most of the language used to describe assault rifles is based on appearance rather than function). For some reason you keep repeating do nothing, when in reality it's "do something different than what you think would work".

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7 hours ago, Spur's Addiction said:

But Moscow Mitch refuses to even hold a vote on anything. 

So then say that,  and it is a fair criticism. Your first statement was false and only written to provide an emotional argument to a problem that needs rational answers. 

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3 hours ago, carolina_corpsman said:

 

What does that have to do with banning bump stocks?

It has everything to do with the core of your position and where we differ. You are happy to support curbing gun violence in the context of the the right to bear arms. I just want to curb gun violence. I don't mean this as an attack, but I do think it summarizes our differences. 

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3 hours ago, carolina_corpsman said:

I have never advocated for not trying, you know this. I have given a number of ideas that I feel would be more efficient and more constitutional than restricting or banning guns because they are scary lookings (let's be honest, most of the language used to describe assault rifles is based on appearance rather than function). For some reason you keep repeating do nothing, when in reality it's "do something different than what you think would work".

I havent seen the GOP do anything but obstruct on this. You say you are ok with mental health but when it gets to the details you're first commitment is to gun owners. I think its time to stop considering owning a gun an inalienable right. 

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17 minutes ago, Sporkgod50 said:

I havent seen the GOP do anything but obstruct on this. You say you are ok with mental health but when it gets to the details you're first commitment is to gun owners. I think its time to stop considering owning a gun an inalienable right. 

while it might not be inalienable getting around the constitution is no easy task

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15 minutes ago, STS said:

while it might not be inalienable getting around the constitution is no easy task

completely agree there, but the counter argument has never been that it is difficult. Corp and KOB frequently point to 2A as the sole basis for why access to guns should not be limited except in extreme scenarios. (more extreme than our current insanity with gun violence.)

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1 hour ago, Sporkgod50 said:

completely agree there, but the counter argument has never been that it is difficult. Corp and KOB frequently point to 2A as the sole basis for why access to guns should not be limited except in extreme scenarios. (more extreme than our current insanity with gun violence.)

I think that this is why everything in regards to guns is just lip service...it would take a constitutional change (IMO) to see any real change and I don't think that will ever happen...at least not in my life time

The only way that this changes is for huge populations shifts within the country

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5 minutes ago, STS said:

I think that this is why everything in regards to guns is just lip service...it would take a constitutional change (IMO) to see any real change and I don't think that will ever happen...at least not in my life time

The only way that this changes is for huge populations shifts within the country

I agree with you and I consider leaning on 2A obstructionism in the face of a crisis. the gun lobby is powerful and influential over its members and our government.

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Just now, Sporkgod50 said:

I agree with you and I consider leaning on 2A obstructionism in the face of a crisis. the gun lobby is powerful and influential over its members and our government.

I certainly understand your point...there will come a tipping point in which real change could occur...the rub IMO opinion in all of this is that the more people reject "common sense" gun control the more likely an extreme measure would be viewed as popular and necessary 

Of course changing the makeup of the US Supreme Court would help as well but with lifetime appointments change based there through judicial review of laws will move at a snail's pace

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16 minutes ago, STS said:

I certainly understand your point...there will come a tipping point in which real change could occur...the rub IMO opinion in all of this is that the more people reject "common sense" gun control the more likely an extreme measure would be viewed as popular and necessary 

Of course changing the makeup of the US Supreme Court would help as well but with lifetime appointments change based there through judicial review of laws will move at a snail's pace

With respect, I haven't seen any moderate/current aka "common sense" efforts and if they have been enacted they certainly have not had a measurable effect on gun violence. 

 

Personally I think until we can have a discussion that doesn't devolve into, but 2A, I can't take gun advocates seriously on this issue. The response to children are dying should not be to limit ourselves to options that focus on optimizing the number of people with guns. that is 100% the wrong priority.  

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7 hours ago, Sporkgod50 said:

With respect, I haven't seen any moderate/current aka "common sense" efforts and if they have been enacted they certainly have not had a measurable effect on gun violence. 

 

Personally I think until we can have a discussion that doesn't devolve into, but 2A, I can't take gun advocates seriously on this issue. The response to children are dying should not be to limit ourselves to options that focus on optimizing the number of people with guns. that is 100% the wrong priority.  

There are some Republicans pushing to expand access to background checks and making them mandatory for private sales. I think I remember somewhere someone was working on an app that could be used to expedite background checks between individuals. I know improving the reporting process to NICS would have prevented some of these shootings. The idea of protecting minors should also be readdressed, I forget where I linked it, but the amount of opportunities they had to prevent the Stoneman Douglass shootings but for fear of a lawsuit they did not press charges when they should have which would have prohibited owing. This all seems like common sense reform that would actually address the situation while not infringing in any way on law abiding gun owners. 

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You gun grabbers should be celebrating, the City Counsel  of Columbia unanimously voted in support of red flag laws.

I guess "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." (5th amendment to the constitution, in the Bill of Rights) means much to politicians anymore. Then there is the amendment that comes before that that say's: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." 

Then there is the SC code: 23-31-510:

No governing body of any county, municipality, or other political subdivision in the State may enact or promulgate any regulation or ordinance that regulates or attempts to regulate: (1) the transfer, ownership, possession, or transportation or firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, or any combination of these things..."

 

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11 hours ago, carolina_corpsman said:

There are some Republicans pushing to expand access to background checks and making them mandatory for private sales. I think I remember somewhere someone was working on an app that could be used to expedite background checks between individuals. I know improving the reporting process to NICS would have prevented some of these shootings. The idea of protecting minors should also be readdressed, I forget where I linked it, but the amount of opportunities they had to prevent the Stoneman Douglass shootings but for fear of a lawsuit they did not press charges when they should have which would have prohibited owing. This all seems like common sense reform that would actually address the situation while not infringing in any way on law abiding gun owners. 

It seems like reform handicapped by the idea that protecting fun owners is the number one priority. I find that morally and ethically suspect

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8 hours ago, carolina_corpsman said:

You gun grabbers should be celebrating, the City Counsel  of Columbia unanimously voted in support of red flag laws.

I guess "...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..." (5th amendment to the constitution, in the Bill of Rights) means much to politicians anymore. Then there is the amendment that comes before that that say's: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." 

Then there is the SC code: 23-31-510:

No governing body of any county, municipality, or other political subdivision in the State may enact or promulgate any regulation or ordinance that regulates or attempts to regulate: (1) the transfer, ownership, possession, or transportation or firearms, ammunition, components of firearms, or any combination of these things..."

 

Why would anyone oppose red flag laws other than valuing gun ownership over human lives? I guess there's the slippery slope idea but being afraid of your own imagination might be less reasonable justification

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10 minutes ago, Sporkgod50 said:

Why would anyone oppose red flag laws other than valuing gun ownership over human lives? I guess there's the slippery slope idea but being afraid of your own imagination might be less reasonable justification

Doesn't take much to trigger the gun nuts. 

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1 hour ago, Sporkgod50 said:

Why would anyone oppose red flag laws other than valuing gun ownership over human lives? I guess there's the slippery slope idea but being afraid of your own imagination might be less reasonable justification

Because it flies in the face of the constitution, like it or not we have the right to due process. You can't pick and choose when you bypass the constitution and not expect it to come back and bite you in the ass. I know you think it's pearl clutching but you also thought I was crazy when I said registries would lead to confiscations and now you have politicians saying "hell yeah, they will have to give up their guns". Almost every Democratic hopeful supports the assault weapon ban and many of them support confiscation. Seems like it's more than just pearl clutching to me. 

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1 hour ago, Spur's Addiction said:

Doesn't take much to trigger the gun nuts. 

Who is triggered? Just pointing out that red flag laws are unconstitutional. I'm trying to keep this discussion based in logic, statistics, and facs, not fear mongering like you tend to lean towards. 

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